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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 7, 2004 15:02:04 GMT -5
This thread is to argue that patriotism, or nationalism or "pride in ones country", is currently, and has been historically, a negative influence on humanity.
Firstly I recognise the importance of national borders, individual national cultures/language. This is not my problem.
The problem occurs when people start beleiving that that their country, and the occupants of their country, are fundamentally better than everyone else. This is the fundamental principle behind patriotism, but it is also the fundamental principle behind racism, and many wars. World war two for example, was the result of the German government acting on a deeply patriotic beleive that the German people were the best in the world.
Nationalism also skews ones moral concerns. British news at the moment is flodded with stories about a BBC camera man killed in Saudi Arabia. The only reason they are reporting his death, and not any of the other hundreds of deaths that took place at gun point today, is because largely because he comes the UK.
I have never met this man. Although his death is tragic, why should I find it any more tragic than the other deaths that happened today?
In Britian we have a situation where the media proitises British human life, over other human life. When the only difference between British life and human life is, as far as I'm concerned, a simple matter of distance.
I imagine in America there is a very similar situation.
So any patriots here, as I imagine lots of you are, justify your patriotism.
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 7, 2004 21:49:52 GMT -5
Patriotism doesn't even exist. Barely...
Only the people that are/were in the army.
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Post by Peanut on Jun 7, 2004 22:21:33 GMT -5
I dont know if I would say I'm Patriotic but I must admit, I am proud to be a Canadian. I am even happier that my parents didn't make the decision to immigrate to America instead of Canada.
I say this not out of spite, but just out of what I have experienced from America and Americans. In Canada, I consider myself Polish-Canadian, even though I was born in Canada. This type of mentality does not exist in America - you are american, if you live there, plain and simple.
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 8, 2004 4:41:20 GMT -5
I've never really felt an attachment to a particular nation. I have one New Zealand parent and one British parent and have spent most of my life living between the places.
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Post by scummybear on Jun 8, 2004 11:25:08 GMT -5
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 8, 2004 13:06:41 GMT -5
What has this got to do with anything?
Was this article supposed to be a defence of patriotism?
Can you show me how.
Oh and "liberals" who make fun of other people's sexuality are not "liberals" in my book. I am not associated with those people.
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 8, 2004 14:05:17 GMT -5
Ann Coulter should be raped by ants. And she's full of horseshit.
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Post by scummybear on Jun 8, 2004 14:33:59 GMT -5
What has this got to do with anything? Was this article supposed to be a defence of patriotism? Can you show me how. Oh and "liberals" who make fun of other people's sexuality are not "liberals" in my book. I am not associated with those people. I get it, if you don't like it, it has nothing to do with anything, right? What's the purpose of your thread, besides a hatefully provocative attack of patriotism? And you, "KGBagent", I'm glad you were able to respond to the post since you saw the picture of Ann Coulter, since I'm quite sure you can't read. |
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 8, 2004 15:00:10 GMT -5
To be honest that is the purpose of my thread. But its a legitimate attack that needs a legitimate response. I'm curious to see how patriots defend themselves, and the arguments they use to justify their own patriotism.
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Post by scummybear on Jun 9, 2004 10:06:54 GMT -5
Rather than cowardly attacks on the internet, maybe you should ask an American in person.
Again, in this thread, you show your backside.
This is not debate! There is nothing legitimate about it.
Post away, only you care.
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Post by lordjulius7 on Jun 9, 2004 14:16:56 GMT -5
Frankie - what's your solution? As a man once said, it's easy to burn down the shithouse. It's a lot harder to install indoor plumbing.
It is inherently human to feel tribal attatchments. Nations are one method. Tribes are an earlier one. Now, if we look at nations where there is a distinct lack of national identity we see tribalism in a sub-set of the nation and it usually ends up much bloodier. The former Yugoslavia, for example. Or the Congo and the Sudan right now.
Nations that feel a national identity are the safest and most stable tribal blocks around.
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 9, 2004 16:47:33 GMT -5
So you agree with me patriotism is a bad thing? Tribalism and a lack of nationalism are not linked. You cannot blame the situation in Sudan on a lack of Sudanese patriotism, the situation is much more complex than that.
However, perhaps in countries where there are strong internal and regional devisions, a national patriotism is a good short term solution.
However, do you really think that nationalism is the only thing preventing civil war in America and the UK?
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Post by lordjulius7 on Jun 10, 2004 17:07:08 GMT -5
"So you agree with me patriotism is a bad thing? "
No. Patriotism is important for uniting people in a sense of shared being and belonging. It was vital in WWII, for example.
"Tribalism and a lack of nationalism are not linked. "
How did you come to that conclusion? look at a map. The more accepted the national borders, the less internal conflict. Conversely, it is the artificially constructed colonial and post-colonial states that have the most severe tribal problems internally.
"You cannot blame the situation in Sudan on a lack of Sudanese patriotism, the situation is much more complex than that."
Of course it's more complicated than that. But the lack of a shared national identity between the muslim north and the Christian and animist south is clearly a contributory factor.
"However, do you really think that nationalism is the only thing preventing civil war in America and the UK? "
Not these days, no. Historically, it has played a part.
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Trex
Beagle
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Post by Trex on Jun 11, 2004 23:54:15 GMT -5
Frankie
First of all I think you have your terms mixed up----Nationalism is most likely the attitude where the citizens of that country think of themselves as being better or best and that is definitely not a healthy state of mind. Patriotism on the other hand is merely being proud and lucky enough to be a citizen of your particular country. I am proud to be an American----not because I am better than anyone else but because we are mostly free here. Free to speak as we please ---free to practice what ever religion we like and free to just be whatever we are bright enough to be. This country provides the environment for innovation which is one of the traits that we are best known for. We have the "Can do " attitude that allows us to improvise and get on with life as best we may.
Patriotism is also a lot about heroes and tradition----- a hero is made in the wink of an eye----someone who suddenly doesn't think about the consequences of an unselfish act but just does it.
Patriotism is mostly just pride----pride in yourself, pride in the accomplishments of your country,
I am not a flag waver and I don't display the flag on my house or on my car but I am proud of the US flag because of what it means. It is the symbol of our constitution which represents freedom around the world.
Because we are a nation of humans we have made plenty of mistakes. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes----sometimes we keep making the same mistake over and over again as when we keep saving France from themselves or when we keep thinking the UN will solve just one humanitarian problem by thenselves.
Frankie it seems you are trying to demonize patriotism but I think you are confused by something you have read on some trashy site like move-on. org or have listened to Michael Moore too much.
If patriotism is bad then I'm bad to the bone but I will be the first to defend your right to say it.
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Trex
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Post by Trex on Jun 12, 2004 13:09:21 GMT -5
I dont know if I would say I'm Patriotic but I must admit, I am proud to be a Canadian. I am even happier that my parents didn't make the decision to immigrate to America instead of Canada. I say this not out of spite, but just out of what I have experienced from America and Americans. In Canada, I consider myself Polish-Canadian, even though I was born in Canada. This type of mentality does not exist in America - you are american, if you live there, plain and simple. I think what you say about America and Americans is true----because it is the melting pot of the world it is unique in that people who come here want to be Americans or least there was a time when that was true------now I get the idea they just want to come here to take advantage of the benefits-----not really to become Americans. You can't go to Germany and become German, You can't go to Japan and become Japanese but you can come to American and become an American----America is unique I believe in this regard. To me it is sad to hear someone say that they have no particular allegance to their country adopted or not. To me that says they are a person without a country----perhaps they perfer it that way-----do they really? |
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