Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Dec 30, 2004 21:32:09 GMT -5
Hi folks, I want to get some other points of view. The more I think about it the more socialism makes sense. But just to make sure there isn't some fundamental idea that I missed I figured I'd ask.
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Post by BOLO on Dec 30, 2004 21:50:41 GMT -5
Great. Go for it. Don't think so. Looks like you got it. Who is going to join you in this endeavor? Will we all be particpants or can we opt out? Is this a group thing  |
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Post by midcan5 on Dec 31, 2004 9:47:39 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SocialismSocialism is a lot like other isms it sounds good in theory but application never works. Consider even capitalism. The great depression was brought to you by unfettered capitalism. No system covers all bases and it is why labels are mostly meaningless except as rough guides. If you look at America you see a blend of systems, while we claim to be capitalist, we still have tariffs, regulations, price supports and business subsidies of one sort or another. We still have a safety net and we try to help our own. Countries work best when they allow freedom within boundaries otherwise you have monopoly or oligarchy. Check out the URL above for some good basic information. Below are some more pointed points of view but they help frame the question. conservative point of view www.ashbrook.org/publicat/onprin/v1n3/thompson.htmlliberal pov on libertarian a modern offshoot of capitalism world.std.com/~mhuben/liberal.htmllove him or hate him treanor makes you think web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html
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Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Dec 31, 2004 17:13:26 GMT -5
Socialism is a lot like other isms it sounds good in theory but application never works. But I'm asking why wouldn't it? Why, as the most affluent country, can't we provide everyone with what the need before we worry about what we want i.e. healthcare, shelter, food, a secure retirement for our seniors & education for the kids? (I'm 2 years out of high school and when I went overseas to visit family I saw my cousin, who was 2 years younger than me, knew 4 languages and was studying things in math & science that I never even came close to studying in high school so I think we either need to include free college or improve our high schools. preferably the latter). On a more specific note I'd love to see some of the money made in sports redirected to more essential things such as social security (although as I see it SS is horribly inefficient and needs to be reformed -- reformed, not privatized, in my opinion) and schools instead of paying that player their $100million salaries. After all they are playing games for a living. It's one of the things that bothers me about capitalism. Does that baseball player really deserve so much more than that teacher? |
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Post by BOLO on Dec 31, 2004 18:10:30 GMT -5
I'll go for it.
I want free work too.
Why pay for anything? Why work for anything?
I'll buy that too. Dictatorships can be fun.
Absolutely. Reform it by taking more from those that have it and giving it to those that have less.
Those creeps don't deserve it any way.
Yeah. Games. Well that's got to stop.
Get rid of it I say. Socialism is the only way to go.
Will you mind paying for my living?
Yeah I mean hey he probably thinks he earned it. Stupid Bassard. Course he don't deserve more than a teacher.
You know we fill the stands every weekend to see our favorite teachers teach. Well any way I do. Don't you?
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Post by midcan5 on Dec 31, 2004 18:28:00 GMT -5
Abe,
Define socialism ? Tell me how (your socialism) it handles business practices, what kind of market do we have, who decides who runs things - government, is everything regulated and by whom, how do we settle differences, is there law and what form does it take, are laws written and by whom, who owns land, who owns business, who governs? Who enforces law, who defends the nation? Define it better and maybe we can see what it is you are looking for. If you mean a more European type of democratic socialism we already do some of that, that is only a difference of degree.
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Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Dec 31, 2004 19:59:28 GMT -5
Yes, What would be wrong with European style democratic socialism? I know we adopted some socialistic programs like welfare, social security and such I'd just argue that we don't do enough right now & waste way too much.
Another question what does anyone know about Cuba? I read somewhere, I forgot where, that Cuba has the best health care, & education in Latin America.
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Post by BOLO on Dec 31, 2004 20:09:27 GMT -5
Good argument. You win. Let's take everyone elses money. I like that. Course I want yours too. You won't mind thought, right?
It's an island?
Yeah. You got that right.
Hey if you ask nice maybe you can get Fidel to come over here and run our government.
Will you? ........
Ask nice?
Great idea. I'm glad you thought of it.
Well thatabout does it. We are on our way to utopia. let's go gang. Everyone in lock step. Ready. Left. Right. Left. Right.
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Post by midcan5 on Jan 1, 2005 21:15:54 GMT -5
Abe, You always need to check sources, if anyone says Cuba has the best health care, stop and think about that for a second. Here is a country that pretty much depends on aid from others. Not sure how well they even live today but it is doubtful given the technological level of Cuba they have much health care at all. But suppose it were true, would you trade your freedoms for a dictatorship? for a place you are not free to move about, and where information is censored? You really need to check out some of the links for more information. The following URL has a sugar coated view of socialism by 'believers'. Check out this statement and consider would it really work. As you grow up you'll see other reasons on all sides of issues. "In socialism, everybody would have free access to the goods and services designed to directly meet their needs and there need be no system of payment for the work that each individual contributes to producing them. All work would be on a voluntary basis. Producing for needs means that people would engage in work that has a direct usefulness. The satisfaction that this would provide, along with the increased opportunity to shape working patterns and conditions, would bring about new attitudes to work." from: www.worldsocialism.org/introduction/socialism.htmlBolo takes a more conservative point of view. I would call it the slippery slope view of politics, once we do this, this follows till pretty soon we are full blown Socialist radicals. I disagree with him there, but I do agree with you that some parts of Europe's social programs have merit. I wonder if healthcare were provided could that not free up a lot of people to try business ventures and to hire more people? But a study of other countries gives mixed results in lowing unemployment for instance. Take a look at the statistics on Cuba. Most still work for the state and while I remain a new deal liberal, I think everyone working in government a bad idea. www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html#Econmore on soc www.worldsocialism.org/introduction.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Socialism |
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Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Jan 2, 2005 19:21:41 GMT -5
Abe, You always need to check sources... But suppose it were true, would you trade your freedoms for a dictatorship? First off, I know its a day late but Happy New Years folks. Funny, I don't remember saying the U.S. should be a dictatorship. I only asked about Cuba's healthcare and education system. I never claimed it was true. & if you remember I said I forgot where I read that so I cant really check where I read it or where they got their stats from... which is the reason I asked. I'm fond of the idea of universal health care especially after a law passed this last election here in California that required all business with over 100 employees to provide health insurance to all their employees. I know when I was managing my father factory 6 months ago it would have devastated us more than the WTO & NAFTA did. Canada doesn't have that problem. I know the economy has a kind of inertia & it doesn't like change thus, switching to universal health care wouldn't be good for the economy at first but I don't see how it can be bad in the long run. Thanks for the links. I haven’t gotten to them yet but I will in due time. |
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Post by BOLO on Jan 3, 2005 0:18:53 GMT -5
Don't wander. Doesn't befit you. Things you ask for occur under dictatorships, and are best delivered that way.
Take away the right of the people to decide what type Government they should have and what that Government should do and you have a Dictatorship.
I know Calif Well. La La Land.
You tout the fact that in Calif Employers are Told what it is they have to do. How is that law enforced? By gunpoint ultimately. You make a Law you must enforce it with Force.
Don't hold out two failures as successes and then expect reasoned response. I know Canada well and the system does not work. My wife is a Canadian and a victim of that system. She gets better and faster health care here in the United States. One of the biggest Construction jobs going on is along the Canadian U.s. Border. Know what they are building? Hospitals. Guess who is populating them? Canadians.
Cuba is a Dictatorship. Everyone gets Health Care because Castro says if you don't get it we will shoot the doctor.
You want Socialism? Great. Go for it. Since the large majority of America does not want it the only way you can get it is to force it on us. Dictatorship.
Other than that. Hey I'm behind you a 100%. Just make sure your company pays enough taxes to keep me comfortable and oh yeah I want your personal taxes too. I want everything free.
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Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Jan 3, 2005 16:47:52 GMT -5
Don't wander. Doesn't befit you. Things you ask for occur under dictatorships, and are best delivered that way. Take away the right of the people to decide what type Government they should have and what that Government should do and you have a Dictatorship. I know Calif Well. La La Land. You tout the fact that in Calif Employers are Told what it is they have to do. How is that law enforced? By gunpoint ultimately. You make a Law you must enforce it with Force. Don't hold out two failures as successes and then expect reasoned response. I know Canada well and the system does not work. My wife is a Canadian and a victim of that system. She gets better and faster health care here in the United States. One of the biggest Construction jobs going on is along the Canadian U.s. Border. Know what they are building? Hospitals. Guess who is populating them? Canadians. Cuba is a Dictatorship. Everyone gets Health Care because Castro says if you don't get it we will shoot the doctor. You want Socialism? Great. Go for it. Since the large majority of America does not want it the only way you can get it is to force it on us. Dictatorship. Other than that. Hey I'm behind you a 100%. Just make sure your company pays enough taxes to keep me comfortable and oh yeah I want your personal taxes too. I want everything free. Finally! I got an opinion out of you. I'm well aware that health care here is wonderful for the folks who can afford it but what about those who can't? I don't think "tout" is an appropriate word. I'm all for small business. I voted against that prop & even if it passed it wouldn't have affected me because we only had 40-50 employees and I sold it just last month. Tax laws aren't enforced with a gun to your head. They are enforced with the threat of putting you in a cage. I don't see how you equate universal health care, making sure everyone has a place to live & food to eat with dictatorships. It's that a pretty huge jump? But, of course, I may be bias because when I was in kindergarten I had a teacher who brainwashed me by preaching about some Communist garbage called "sharing" -- or something like that. She made us share the toys! Can you believe that?! She wouldn't let me have all the toys for myself! I know from that she was plotting a violent Marxist revolution! Damn commie spy! |
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Post by BOLO on Jan 3, 2005 21:00:33 GMT -5
Who are those who can't? In this country everyone can, and does, get health care. You want to go beyond that and provide Universal Health Coverage.
If there is some one out there that can not afford Health coverage, why is that? Are they too lazy too work or just wont. Is there a possibility Congress has so regulated and taxed the industry that is is un affordable to many? The reasons are manifold. There is no one answer. My paying for someone else's health coverage is definitely not an answer. I refuse to pay for some one else's health coverage. I will pay for mine and my family. There is an intrinsic right for me to decide where my money should go. The money that would go into Universal Health Coverage would have to come from my pockets. Nonsense. I want the Gov to stay out of my wallet.
Semantics.
Good.
Implicit in that is the gun behind the power that puts you in a cage. You are talking nonsense.
All powers of the Government are based on force.
I know. I was an enforcer. Even Agents of the IRS carry guns. Know how many have been shot. Quite a few. Numbers in the hundreds. People can get very irate over Taxes. What if a few million people decided they were not going to pay and actively resisted paying it. How do you think the Government would go about enforcing it?
Nope. Look around. You mentioned one in particular. Cuba. Dictatorship. Look at the others. China. Dictatorship. North Korea. Dictatorship. VietNam. Dictatorship.
In those countries that have semi democratic forms of Government like Canada and England Universal health Care was not voted on by the people but by the Government. In both countries there is also Private Health care, which does well and Universal which does poorly. Inflation is high, Doctors are minimal and declining, the quality is poor and getting poorer and the people are dissatisfied. All except those who like freebies. They are always around and they always want More.
You should have shot her.
Do you really equate toys to money?
Sharing? How much, and for what?
Consider that every tax dollar you pay is shared with some one else. Taxes are nothing more than redistribution of wealth. They are called entitlements. Social Security is the Prime Example and the worst case of it. There are others, The National Endowment for the Arts. What a rip off.
I have to pay tax money so some idiot can place excrement on a statue of the Virgin Mary. BS.
PBS is another. NPR also. Hundreds of Community oriented programs exist off of the Tax payers back.
We had no say in it. I can not just say "I don't want to support that so I am not paying"
Some one with a Gun will come along and tell me I am or I am going to Jail.
You just want to Share one more thing and some one else wants to share just one more thing and soon everyone is sharing. Got a word for that? It is called a commune. What kind of government springs forth from commune?
Now you want to have Universal health coverage? You got to get it past the American Public. Think you can?
It has not succeeded yet through votes. The only time it succeeds is through legislative action taken by the Legislators and none of them want to lose their jobs.
So the only way you get it is through the barrel of a gun.
You and midcan5 should enjoy each others company.
Vaya Con Dios.
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Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
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Post by Abe on Jan 4, 2005 1:17:12 GMT -5
Do you really equate toys to money? Well see that was the messed up part! She made us share everything! EVEN THE COOKIES!! Man, I'll tell you she was nuts. I can't. She is too important to the violent Marxist revolution. Anyway even if I wanted to "They" would have me assassinated because, like I said, she's too important to the revolution. Just you wait. I'm going to tell Miss Johnson that you're a capitalist pig and she'll make you sit in the corner of the room on time out! HA! TAKE THAT! But seriously thank you for your opinion. Although it would do you some good to be nicer. That's usually how discussions go... this is a discussion board, right? What ever happened to southern hospitality? |
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Post by BOLO on Jan 4, 2005 11:38:50 GMT -5
Everything has it's limits.
Including Southern Hospitality.
It got stretched to it's limit with all the Liberal whining that went on.
People want to change the world. That is the nature of humanity.
It becomes impossible when what you want to do is change people. You can't. You can change minds, but very seldom. Usually age and maturity, along with lessons learned, work to change a mind, more than any other factor, especially discussion.
The way someone present for discussion tells you a lot about what mindset they already have.
Most of those with a Liberal bent like midcan5 will find all sorts of reasons to support the original mind set and are not really interested in discussion but more with presenting a point of view that they, or he, holds sacrosanct. Discussion in that case becomes mute and attempts at discourse fail.
We are not a Socialistic Country. We have some Socialistic programs but overall we are not Socialistic nor are we Canada or any one else. We are America, the United States of.
What works elsewhere will not work here. We are too individualistic.
Attempts at socialism will always fail. Whether in the short term or the long run.
The biggest thing going is how it is supported.
By tax payer dollars. Means you would have to raise taxes. Very high. Higher than any one wants. Note the trend. It is and has been to decrease taxes not increase. The only increases that come about are by fiat.
Clinton on one occasion and Congress on another. Never by popular acclaim. A fortiori [by stronger reason]it will never come to be.
Ergo, cadit quaestio.
Ciao.
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