|
|
Post by Ian on Jan 4, 2005 12:57:05 GMT -5
Coming in ahead of El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Guyana, Suriname, Paraguay and Belize's healthcare systems isn't exactly a compliment.  |
|
|
|
Post by TNRighty on Jan 4, 2005 18:00:57 GMT -5
Abe,
Where do I start. First of all, being that you are just two years out of high school, I won't hold your ignorance against you. I'm going to assume you're like most marginally educated 20-year olds (like I once was) and are somwhere between the jack and diddly poo levels of understanding when it comes to economics.
Why is capitalism better than socialism?
1. It encourages responsibility of self, not dependence on government. The minute you surrender your own self dependence to government-provided security (be that in the form of health care, retirement, etc.), you have given up a large chunk of your personal freedom. A government that controls your finances controls you, PERIOD. Health care and retirement are two of the biggest financial responsibilities you have. When YOU control your health care, YOU decide when to see a doctor. YOU decide what doctor to see, and YOU decide what treatment you receive. When YOU own your retirement account, YOU decide when you retire. YOU, in consult with your economic adivisor, decide how much money you "pay" yourself each month out of your retirement account. YOU decide how to live your life. If government controls these things, government tells you when, where, and how much. If that's OK with you, so be it.
2. Don't confuse freedom and rights. You have no right to health care, a retirement account, or a good-paying job, among other things. In America what you do have is the freedom to pursue those things any way you see fit. You are free to completely disregard those things if you wish. You do not, however, have the right to demand those things be provided to you by taxpaying citizens.
3. The capitalist economy is the single greatest poverty-fighting tool man has ever invented. But, like any good tool, you have to know how it works before you can benefit from it. You alone are responsible for making yourself a productive member of American society. The quality of life you live is a direct result of the sum effect of the decisions you have made in your life. You can spend your summers backpacking in Europe, or you can enroll in a computer class at a local junior college. You can sink $300 a month into your BMW payment or you can put it into a 401k. Its up to you. If you take advantages of the educational opportunities available here, and develop for yourself a marketable set of job skills, you can make yourself attractive in the private market and can earn a good living for yourself. You will be able to provide for yourself and your family a solid quality of life. If you view that idea with cynicism, that's your faullt.
4. Take a look at the lifestyle of people who live in purely socialist countries.
5. Governments and societies that protect the power of the freedom of the individual will also encourage inventention and progress. Government doesn't invent things, free people do. The automobile, the computer, electriciity, the telephone, the TV, on and on and on. These things were invented by people free to pursue the possibilities of themselves and free to reap the rewards of their ingenuity.
|
|
Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
|
Post by Abe on Jan 4, 2005 22:15:31 GMT -5
Coming in ahead of El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Guyana, Suriname, Paraguay and Belize's healthcare systems isn't exactly a compliment. I was thinking the same thing when I read that. 1. It encourages responsibility of self, not dependence on government. The minute you surrender your own self dependence to government-provided security (be that in the form of health care, retirement, etc.), you have given up a large chunk of your personal freedom. A government that controls your finances controls you, PERIOD. Health care and retirement are two of the biggest financial responsibilities you have. When YOU control your health care, YOU decide when to see a doctor. YOU decide what doctor to see, and YOU decide what treatment you receive. When YOU own your retirement account, YOU decide when you retire. YOU, in consult with your economic adivisor, decide how much money you "pay" yourself each month out of your retirement account. YOU decide how to live your life. If government controls these things, government tells you when, where, and how much. If that's OK with you, so be it. 2. Don't confuse freedom and rights. You have no right to health care, a retirement account, or a good-paying job, among other things. In America what you do have is the freedom to pursue those things any way you see fit. You are free to completely disregard those things if you wish. You do not, however, have the right to demand those things be provided to you by taxpaying citizens. 3. The capitalist economy is the single greatest poverty-fighting tool man has ever invented. But, like any good tool, you have to know how it works before you can benefit from it. You alone are responsible for making yourself a productive member of American society. The quality of life you live is a direct result of the sum effect of the decisions you have made in your life. You can spend your summers backpacking in Europe, or you can enroll in a computer class at a local junior college. You can sink $300 a month into your BMW payment or you can put it into a 401k. Its up to you. If you take advantages of the educational opportunities available here, and develop for yourself a marketable set of job skills, you can make yourself attractive in the private market and can earn a good living for yourself. You will be able to provide for yourself and your family a solid quality of life. If you view that idea with cynicism, that's your faullt. 4. Take a look at the lifestyle of people who live in purely socialist countries. 5. Governments and societies that protect the power of the freedom of the individual will also encourage inventention and progress. Government doesn't invent things, free people do. The automobile, the computer, electriciity, the telephone, the TV, on and on and on. These things were invented by people free to pursue the possibilities of themselves and free to reap the rewards of their ingenuity. That's the type of answer I was looking for. Funny thing though you say gov’t as if it were some animal. Seeing as how gov't is made up of people I don't see how you can say "Government doesn't invent things, free people do." & don't forget Al Gore invented the internet. Plus the Nazi's & Soviets weren't exactly free but that didn't stop them from inventing. Maybe we should get back to a government of, for & by the people... there was something about that in the communist manifesto. Do you suppose our founding father were Marxist rebels? |
|
|
|
Post by BOLO on Jan 4, 2005 22:26:12 GMT -5
Didn't know we were competing.
Tell you the same thing I told Abe.
You want it, go for it.
You won't get it.
If you or anyone else thinks the Health Care in the US is less than top grade, or so low you think other countries beat it. Head for those countries and knock yourself out.
I have traveled extensively. You want Stats or reality?
Whatever.
|
|
|
|
Post by TNRighty on Jan 4, 2005 22:38:10 GMT -5
Name for me one single good thing that has ever come from anyone or anything living under a Nazi or Soviet regime.
Please. Enlighten me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ian on Jan 5, 2005 11:19:51 GMT -5
Didn't know we were competing. Tell you the same thing I told Abe. You want it, go for it. You won't get it. If you or anyone else thinks the Health Care in the US is less than top grade, or so low you think other countries beat it. Head for those countries and knock yourself out. I have traveled extensively. You want Stats or reality? Whatever. I was referring to his cite of Cuba having the greatest healthcare system in Latin America. The main country in my quote was Cuba, not the US. Bolo! I thought you knew me better. Socialist!? *Ian cries in the corner TNRighty:White Pride |
|
|
|
Post by BOLO on Jan 5, 2005 12:49:52 GMT -5
Apologies.  All over the place. It did surprise me. I guess I am so exasperated with those two it is starting to show. Notice how they ignore the facts as presented and do not even attempt to respond to them but rather forge on ahead as if nothing has been said. Typical Liberals. ;D  |
|
Abe
Beagle
Posts: 8
|
Post by Abe on Jan 5, 2005 15:12:15 GMT -5
Actually, I was just reading about quantum physics and I came across quite a few German names that were doing their thing during the nazi era. To name a few there was Max Planck who came up with Planck’s constant, and Werner Heisenberg who came up with the uncertainty principle. There were more but those are the only 2 I can remember off the top of my head. Now keep in mind this was a book about physics not the history of their lives so I don't know how they stood politically. Also, don't forget the soviets were the first in space & if you want to pretend that the nazi & soviet science programs weren't good ones then you're kidding yourself. Notice how they ignore the facts as presented and do not even attempt to respond to them but rather forge on ahead as if nothing has been said. Typical Liberals. ;D I never considered myself a liberal but I've noticed you folks call everyone you don't like a liberal so I'll accept it. Keep in mind I'm not here to defend socialism. I came here to get your opinions to see whether or not I had the wrong perspective on politics. So maybe you can see why I didn’t bother to respond to them point by point. You know, there is a difference between discussion & debate. I didn't expect to be met by a bunch of bitter half-wits who attack anyone with a different opinion instead of just talking like civilized people. Midcan, obviously, being an exception because he disagreed with me but was civilized about it. I hope all the other conservatives aren't as dim as you folks. With that said I'll be on my way. Maybe I’ll try to try a “liberal” board so I can have an actual discussion. Modified: Ian wasn't rude either. But you didn't really give an opinion which is why I forgot about you when i wrote that. |
|
|
|
Post by TNRighty on Jan 5, 2005 17:26:45 GMT -5
Abe,
Are you telling me you would rather live under a socialist or communist regime? Or is your stance purely for the sake of argument?
If you're just trying to encourage discussion, I'll engage you in that. However, if you really believe socialism is better than capitalism nobody here will convince you otherwise. Try your luck in Cuba if thats really what you want. Then come see me in about a year and tell me if you've changed your mind.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ian on Jan 5, 2005 18:18:23 GMT -5
Abe, I'll be more forthright in my following posts since humor seems to be an unsuitable option when trying to convey an opinion on a message board. Having posted here more than anyone but Peanut and MO, I can tell you from personal experience that so-called "ranting" is a waste of time. If you look at my early posts, you'll observe unrivaled craftsmanship. I dove into the most meticulous details of my argument, engaged in an intellectual battle over every proverbial inch (I suggest you look them up, it was quite a sight to behold.). However, after months of these volleys I grew weary, making what seemed like no progress on either end, and at the close of these long, arduous clashes, we forged nothing but a more bitter disagreement. Thus I have abandoned my intellectual pursuits and address this conclave with sarcasm, perhaps the lowest form of humor, and for that, my friend, I most sincerely ask for the contrition of the members of this glorious board.  |
|
|
|
Post by BOLO on Jan 5, 2005 19:12:29 GMT -5
Exactly. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bravo.
No contrition necassary.
As to Abe. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Remember what I said earlier on. If you want to talk Garbage go where the Garbage is. I see you are headed that way. Witless one.
By the way. PT said it best.
You can full all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Wolf is sheeps clothing.
Consider yourself Icarus. Stay away from flames.
|
|
|
|
Post by groucho on Jan 12, 2005 2:52:21 GMT -5
Abe, I'll be more forthright in my following posts since humor seems to be an unsuitable option when trying to convey an opinion on a message board. Having posted here more than anyone but Peanut and MO, I can tell you from personal experience that so-called "ranting" is a waste of time. If you look at my early posts, you'll observe unrivaled craftsmanship. I dove into the most meticulous details of my argument, engaged in an intellectual battle over every proverbial inch (I suggest you look them up, it was quite a sight to behold.). However, after months of these volleys I grew weary, making what seemed like no progress on either end, and at the close of these long, arduous clashes, we forged nothing but a more bitter disagreement. Thus I have abandoned my intellectual pursuits and address this conclave with sarcasm, perhaps the lowest form of humor, and for that, my friend, I most sincerely ask for the contrition of the members of this glorious board. RUSH!!!!  I thought it might be you......... (And why you choose to go "slumming" here is beside the point; our Loyal Liberal faction wouldn't understand the reasons, no matter how simple!! ) ;D BTW - can you also do a mean William F.? ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Ian on Jan 12, 2005 11:42:45 GMT -5
BTW - can you also do a mean William F.? ;D ;D Ahhh, I only wish the Gods were so kind. I am humbled, however, by your more than generous comparison. |
|
