Eric Rudolph

[Patriot]

All of you have heard, I'm sure, that Eric Rudolph, once on the FBI's ten most wanted fugitives list, has been arrested, tried, and sent to prison for the remainder of his life for bombing an abortion clinic. If you don't know the story behind Rudolph you can read it here: www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/eric_rudolph/1.html

What many of you don't know, however, is that before Rudolph was caught, Colonel Bo Gritz (most decorated Green Beret of American history and paramilitary affiliate of various right wing groups in Idaho) set out to capture Rudolph himself and bring him to safety, aside of federal officials. This occurred less than one year after Rudolph took to the hills. Anyone who knows about Bo is aware that he intervened at Ruby Ridge to escort Randy Weaver to safety. Well, it was the same thing with Rudolph-- except that Rudolph chose (and managed) to evade Bo, his search team, and his dogs.

Now, this thread isn't meant to be a sob party for Rudolph. The man was a US Army vet and knew the risks he was taking. In fact, his evasion of the FBI within a paltry 100,000 acres of the Nantahala Forest-- lasting five years-- was truly unparalleled in the 20th century.

Rudolph possessed the survival mentality. That's the baseline for why he was able to do what he did. He wasn't held back by the typical restrictions which bind people in today's world because he had the mind and the resources to work outside those restrictions. He didn't fear consequences because he had the wherewithal to bring the fight to his enemies. Same with Tim McVeigh. And in fact, it was the same with Randy Weaver (even though Weaver was a victim and not a perpetrator).

Not that Rudolph was justified in what he did, but it all goes to show that folks with military training and a conservative background are, in fact, formidible opponents if they choose to be. What lies latent, in many individuals, could easily turn them into a powerful superman. That's why we conservatives are actually a lot stronger, en masse, than liberals think. And the future of this country isn't going to slide to the left as they desire: constitutional revisionism will never fully come to fruition.

[midcan5]

"Not that Rudolph was justified in what he did, but it all goes to show that folks with military training and a conservative background are, in fact, formidible opponents if they choose to be. What lies latent, in many individuals, could easily turn them into a powerful superman. That's why we conservatives are actually a lot stronger, en masse, than liberals think. And the future of this country isn't going to slide to the left as they desire: constitutional revisionism will never fully come to fruition."

I find this post extremely disturbing. Having served this country during Nam and going through military training the unspoken or undertone of this post is that liberals are the enemy. All fascists, dictators, and totalitarians use the same tactic, they all need a common foe as it helps them mold their followers views. This thinking is cult like and is an us against them form of cohesion. Constitutional revisionism has been going on since the beginning and will continue to, remember slavery, prohibition, voting rights.

[Patriot]

Midcan:

First of all, as several of us on this board have already discussed, your lies about having served in Vietnam are clearly visible to anyone who actually has had military training.

Second of all: this thread isn't meant to start a flame war over conservatives vs. liberals. Rather it's simply a survivalist dialogue on the methods employed by Rudolph, nothing more. My thoughts which you found "disturbing" were simply observations (truthful ones, no less). Often times the truth is disturbing. And many liberals would do well to be disturbed. Don't think you won't see more Rudolphs and McVeighs in the years ahead with extremist left wing policy.

Do you know that the average American Muslim rakes in 90 thousand per year? And that Islam teaches all nations must come under the yoke of Allah, voluntarily or by force? Yes, there are some people in this country who would do well to be disturbed.

[midcan5]

I have never said I served in Nam I served during that time and that should have been clear if you have read my posts. I missed Nam although I did volunteer. Depending on the field you were in there were lots of overseas places for figmo. My brother served in Nam in combat and has cancer because of it. Many who served do. Friends died there and it was a mistake born of fear and the times that the passage of time has shown too well.

Your post is still disturbing. It is un American and for genuine Americans, conservative or liberal or anywhere in between it should be called out for what it is: A tacit acceptance of hatred and terrorism. You obviously know little about being a patriotic American.

McVeigh and Rondolfph are scum, they are the worst sort of scum and should be called that by any decent person. To kill innocent americans over your narrow minded hatred is a act of a criminal plain and simple.

For those who want to counter hatred: www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/

www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rebuttal_to_raymond_kraft.htm

"...The threat of terrorist attacks using Weapons of Mass Destruction is not simply an Islamic issue, it is more accurately described as a religious fundamentalist issue."

"What Mr. Kraft fails to point out is that the most persistent threat that we face here in America is not terrorist activity from Islamic fundamentalists, but in fact from Christian fundamentalists, white supremacist, and other ultra right-wing organizations. This isn’t a shallow jab or a means to redirect the conversation, this is a solid fact. The biggest terrorist threat in America today comes not from the Middle East, but from the American homeland."

"In 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City killing 168 people."

"Immediately following 9/11 there were the Anthrax letter bombings, strongly suspected of being perpetrated by a domestic American, though no arrests have been made yet."

[Patriot]

Midcan:

Evidently you have become emotionally distraught over the contents of my prior post. I made clear the fact that I was not attempting to start a flame-war between conservatives and liberals. But, I did say that there are a lot of people who could easily transform themselves into another Rudolph or McVeigh to combat extremist left-wing policies. Hence, don't be surprised if you see more of the same in the future decades.

Your post is still disturbing. It is un American and for genuine Americans, conservative or liberal or anywhere in between it should be called out for what it is: A tacit acceptance of hatred and terrorism. You obviously know little about being a patriotic American.

First of all, regardless of whether or not you think my post is disturbing, the First Amendment allows for free speech. How is it liberals are the loudest to blast their own ugly voices, while also attempt to silence conservatives? Ever hear of hypocrisy? I certainly don't condone terrorism. Nor am I advocating acts of violence. But, I can discuss the likes of Rudolph and McVeigh if I so choose.

As a hippy who dodged the draft, you have little ground to tell me that I know nothing of being a patriotic American. You're a loud mouth behind a computer screen, but that's about all your "service" amounts to. If your ego actually matches your bluster, I'll be happy to meet you for a traditional bar-room brawl. So, Midcan, either step up or shut up.

[midcan5]

Hah aha - too funny, so now you want to fight. Do you beat your wife and children and fellow workers when they disagree with you? And your false bravery is funny considering you have no idea whether I couldn't beat the hell of you should I stoop to your offer. Draft dodger? Think you have the wrong party / person that is the province of Bush/Cheney. You're not one of those macho cheerleaders like W are you? I'm sorry I know it makes you mad but I'm getting too old to pommel children. And McVeigh and Rudolph are still scum and that is not the way we do things in America, instead of admiring them you should hate them for the cowards they are.

[Patriot]

I take your answer to be something other than "stepping up". In other words, it's "backing down". And I don't waste time with folks who don't have the balls to back up slander. So, you'll be ignored for what you truly are: a liberal computer Geek who talks big and swings light.

On that note, I hope you can live with yourself for the despicable coward you are. It must be a sad state of affairs, on a personal level, to know that you've never have the guts to step up to the plate no matter who the enemy was- the Vietcong, the Mujahadeen, or, a conservative American.

As for "false bravery": if you had been man enough to back up your insults, I would have happily obliged an in-person rendezvous. Unlike most of the rabble this country has produced in recent generations, I endorse (and expect) honorable conduct. That means, if you want to bash the patriotism of another American, you had better be prepared to back it up on the field. If not, then your words are useless and you are exposed for being the crouching coward you truly are. This isn't "Hardball" with Chris Matthews. This is "Real Balls" with Patriot of Rantweb.

Incidentally: I certainly do not condone the methods employed by McVeigh or Rudolph, and your insistence upon lumping me in their camp, simply on account of this thread which discusses them, reflects the typical liberal penchant for equivocation.

[midcan5]

Patriot, typical right wing bs, stepping up as you call it is similar to the stuff of McVeigh and Rudolph but you are not sophisticated enough to recognize that fact. What does any ideologue do when others disagree? Do they compromise, do they work out some solution, no, they impose their own dictatorial ideas on others because they are not man/woman enough to understand the complexity of politics, life, and society. And when they cannot, they kill the innocent because they are cowards. How old are you twelve? Why would I want to waste energy on you? After I got done beating the hell out of you what would that accomplish? Would you become a freedom loving, reasoning liberal American citizen who only fights when necessary or would you remain a braggart and right wingnut? Given your posts it may be too late for you.

You may consider changing from 'Patriot' to 'Nationalist' as that is more appropriate given your ideological bent.

". . . patriotism is defensive; nationalism is aggressive. Patriotism is the love of a particular land with its particular traditions; nationalism is the love of something less tangible, of the myth of a 'people,' justifying many things, a political and ideological substitute for religion. Patriotism is old fashioned; . . . nationalism is modern and populist." (p. 36)

John Lukacs's Democracy and Populism, Fear and Hatred

[Patriot]

Gobble gobble gobble!!!

Your typing, Midcan, means nothing. Anyone can touch a keyboard. Anyone can quote a source. Anyone can hurl an insult. Anyone can hide behind a textbook. And anyone can run away.

But all that comes to nought when the rubber meets the road. There's a reason Thomas Nast, the 19th century cartoonist, chose the Donkey to represent the democratic party. They're stubborn, slow, and assinine. If I were you I'd post an ass for in icon as soon as possible.

[TNRighty]

I've been observing the back and forth between you two now for a few days and didn't want to interrupt it, but I want to offer my two cents now.

First of all, Eric Rudolph can call himself a conservative if he wants to, but I'll call him a psycho. I believe in the rule of law, and as much as I hate it, abortion is legal. I want to see the law changed, but blowing up abortion clinics isn't the way to go about it, and any conservative who sympathizes with Eric Rudolph isn't going to help the cause.

I believe that religiously abortion is a crime, but we don't live in a religious theocracy. If we did we'd prosecute adulterors, gluttons, and people who say "goddammit", and there are people in this country who would support that...very scary. Yes, we are a country whose founding philosophy is based in the Ten Commandments, but we must be careful that we do not play God while here on Earth.

Let me be clear, I think abortion is a crime that should be deemed illegal under our laws. As humans I think we are obligated to protect innocent life.

As for the survival skills of Eric Rudolph, I could care less. Terrorists who live in the hills of Afghanistan probably have survival skills equal to or better than Eric Rudolph, and they probably make better bombs. I'm a conservative and I wouldn't make it three days in the hills of North Carolina. I know many liberals who would do much better than me.

Survival skills don't exactly correlate with political affiliation, so I think you two would do better to separate the arguments.

[midcan5]

TNRighty,

Since Patriot and I are being unreasonable it is good to hear a voice of reason.

[Patriot]

Tn Righty:

Thanks for the interlude. I totally agree the arguments (or discussions, rather), should be separated. In fact, as I stated in my first post, this thread wasn't meant to start a flame war between conservatives and liberals. Rather it was meant to be an objective discussion on how Rudolph managed to stay alive and well for over five years in the face of an ongoing manhunt. But, typically, along came Midcan with personal accusations. So, I thought I'd just show how panzy the liberals on this board truly are.

As for "reasonableness" versus "unreasonablesness": sometimes it's the slug, and not the slander, which carries the day. At least, that's how it always used to be until this country commenced its cultural crapshoot of wimps.

Now, back to this and other discussions...

[midcan5]

www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/eric-rudolph/