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Post by MO on Feb 14, 2006 23:20:46 GMT -5
Again, what the hell are you talking about? The feds don't have any business making decisions for local schools, according to the Constitution. I support a secular government that doesn't stand in the way of the free exercise of religion. Privacy issues and religion? Not sure what you mean, there. Gay issues? Like what, "gay marriage?" Most Americans don't support that, regardless of their religion.
So, no, not a curious statement, but I'm not surprised to get a straw man from a leftard.
No one is insisting that federal law state that people not eat meant on Fridays (like the Catholics), or refrain from all alcohol (like the SBC's). Your beef seems to be that religious folks are allowed to vote.
Instead of bringing up irrelevant points, why don't you explain what your beef is with freedom of speech and freedom of the press?
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 15, 2006 19:12:05 GMT -5
"It turns out that the evils which have infested religion are not confined to it, but are ones that can accompany any successful human institution. Nor is it even clear that religion itself is something that the human race either can or should be cured of." Mary Midgley "The Myths We Live By"
Mo, seems you are having a hard time understanding me lately, or rather is the complexity of life getting to you. Conservatives often have a hard time with complexity but still take a minute and consider what you wrote. Is that not a myth? I'm sure most Muslims don't feel that way, especially the millions who live in more secular societies. Islam is as much a religion as any other. Christianity ruled the middle ages for better or worse and the passing of time does not change that nor does it change the wish of some today for another Christian theocracy.
There are many Christians today who are every bit as radical or violent as the most violent Islamic extremists. Eric Rudolph or the shooters at abortion clinics, church arsonists, racist and homophobes, for example. I admit we have less violence but that is not to say the people are very different. Rest assured we are pretty much like others.
Beef? huh, I am the liberal here that is at the foundation of liberalism so I have no beef with either. That is a myth of ours and one that also has boundaries. Don't put words in my mouth or get into a slippery slope argument. Many conservatives want prayer in school, they want to teach non science (ID) as science, they want to ban abortion, or gay marriage. They base that want on religious doctrine. So how you can fault another religion for what your own ideology stands for is still curious to me.
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Post by MO on Feb 15, 2006 21:11:27 GMT -5
More complete pish posh, but that's all liberals seem to be able to come up with for an excuse standing on their heads to defend the violent activities of Islamic extremists. They fancy themselves more complex, but they are quite addled.
There are no Christians that are as violent as Islamic extremists/terrorists. If they are that way, they aren't really Christians.
Mary Midgley can make such comments in the western world and still manage to literally keep her head on her shoulders. Some places, she would be stoned for blasphamy.
The total number of murders of abortion providers since 1973 can be counted on one hand. People of the other opinion have murdered 47,282,293 children. More people died today because of Islamic terrorism than abortion providers murdered in 40 years. Those murders were done by a few sick individuals without any measurable movement or following of people that support them. The Columbine murderers killed more people in one day, targeting people of faith. You think most of the people in our nation's prisons were people who used to spend Sundays polishing the brass at church? No, if they were, Democraps wouldn't be trying to get felons cleared to vote.
Killing abortion providers can't be justified in the Bible, but killing any Infidel is justified in the Koran and Hadith. Sure, there are nut jobs that call themselves members of all religions, but that doesn't mean their behavior is consistent with the fundamentals of the religion. "Fundamentalist" Islamics fly planes into skyscrappers and kill 4,000 people. Fundamentalist Baptists don't.
I can't speak for all conservatives. I don't want prayer in public schools, because I don't want public schools. It's still curious how you could equate a child's right to say a prayer before he eats his lunch to a government enforced stoning of a woman for being raped (adultery) or speaking ill of the forced national religion.
What does "gay rights" have to do with Christians or a theocracy? Why don't you check out what kind of rights gays have in secular communist China? Try Cuba. While you're at it, check out what rights they have in Islamic rule countries.
People have every right and even a responsibility to vote their conscience and their values, and that means their individual religious beliefs or lack thereof play a part. If you don't see the ocean between that and a theocracy, than no, you're not "complex" at all.
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 20, 2006 17:07:19 GMT -5
Mo,
Discussions, debates, arguments are either closer to the truth or farther away, cleverness is not an argument.
You are rationalizing, five wrongs versus one wrong don't make the one wrong a right.
You don't know your bible as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are of the same tree and the bible is full of pronouncements to put to death idolaters.
Public education is at the heart of a democratic nation - do you not think a strong public school system in any nation does not make for more tolerance and learning.
40 million - what are we rabbits.
How would your 40 million live, as Dostoevsky asked is all of this worth the suffering of a single child?
Do you realize that out of 1 million conceptions 200 thousand are discarded before the woman even knows? That is a low side figure. Granted the idea that you believe these to be children are they all in heaven and is that not a better thing than this journey through this vale of tears?
It is only modern science that allows us to think of cells as children, an irony considering the right's attitude towards science.
In the middle ages death was so prevalent a child was not considered a person till the age of reason.
For Catholics seven was the age of reason, death before that meant you went to heaven.
Every 15 seconds a sentient being dies of a preventable disease in the world.
Life is an evolutionary fact that demonstrates both its strength and weaknesses.
Each month the opportunity for life is presented to healthy women should they not then fulfill that opportunity?
I came from an orthodox family that practiced that, we were 14.
Every 15 seconds a child dies in the world of a preventable disease and the right fights constantly to reduce aid and assistance to these children.
It is just more complicated than you make it.
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Post by MO on Feb 21, 2006 1:02:16 GMT -5
What ever, Midcan. Plenty of 80 year olds drop dead of heart attacks. That doesn't justify beating one to death for his wallet. Don't presume to know my religious beliefs, as your guess is not accurate. Your humanistic moral relevancy ramblings are off topic. I'm well aware that the Old Testament is accepted by all three of the world's monotheistic religions. No where did I claim it wasn't. Islam must stand or fall on the teachings that are unique to it, and that was the only books I mentioned. Try and pay attention and stay on topic.  www.strategypage.com/qnd/iran/articles/20060209.aspx |
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Post by TNRighty on Feb 22, 2006 18:45:11 GMT -5
Medican,
In response to your last post...
First, public education.
Education is essential for a free society. QUALITY education, not GOVERNMENT education. People who oppose public education don't do so because they want kids to grow up ignorant, its because we DON'T want them to be ignorant. Over the last forty years, government has proved it cannot adequately educate the youth of this country, which is evident by the steady decline in the math, reading, and science skills of our kids vs kids from other nations.
The problem with public education is that it is a government-run monopoly. You go to the school the government says you go to, and you have no choice. Schools do not have to compete for students and thus have no incentive to improve the quality of the services they provide. They have a captive market. You live here, you go to school here. Its the same as a movie theatre selling stale popcorn for 8 bucks. That's what happens when you eliminate competition...high price, poor quality.
Imagine being told by the government that you can only shop for groceries at the store you are "zoned" for. You want sushi, but they don't offer sushi...too bad for you. If you want sushi you're going to have to move to another part of town. Their meats aren't fresh, too bad. Eat it or starve. And as long as the government will force you to shop at that store, that store has no incentive to offer better products or competitive pricing. They set the rules...this is what you pay, this is what you get, and you have no bargaining power because your freedom of choice is removed from the equation. Welcome to the lovely world of communism.
Government monoplies lead to high cost and poor quality. When you relinquish government control and open the market to competition it results in higher quality and lower cost. There are many examples of this in recent history.
The postal service. Remember when the US Postal service had a monopoly on the business. Overnight shipping on Christmas Eve? Forget about it. Now you have companies like Fed Ex and UPS that will ship anything anywhere in the country OVERNIGHT! And they do it cheaper than the USPS! That was a pipe dream before the postal service was deregulated.
When you let market capitalism work, let the private citizens participate in free trade and free competition, you will beat a government product every time...in cost and in quality.
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 23, 2006 20:03:13 GMT -5
TNRightie, I think we are all going off topic but your analogies and comparisons do not hold water. Public education (PE) is not a government monopoly - government has a hard time running anything at all besides a monopoly. What PE is is a common grounding in the knowledge and texts of a society, it is the information deemed necessary for that particular society to survive and prosper. Do you think it any accident that the west does so well in terms of societal and technical progress? Education is at the heart of that progress and an open, shared education is the best method for developing citizens into productive members of a society. The mind is a terrible thing to waste and to have a limited education is a waste. I also think that our society does not honor education, it is often people of other cultures who come here and take advantage of our educational opportunities. We honor the quick buck, the gee whiz solution, the sports idol, or the get rich quick scheme to the detriment of education. The free market myth is one of the great myths of all time, regulation is an essential part of business and it is necessary to keep the crooks at bay. ps the postal service is still regulated and they do a damn good job of supporting everyone everywhere and Christmas should be time off - lol. www.politicalpass.com/2005/11/education-and-fame/ |
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Post by Ian on Feb 23, 2006 20:12:22 GMT -5
Good post TNR. I'll never forget Randi Weingarten, president of the United Federation of Teachers, when confronted by John Stossel for his "Stupid in America" special on the absolute mess the New York public school system is in (in which he put forth such unbelievable evidence of the teacher's union's overwhelming power as the "rubber room" system) actually responding “those folks who want to say this all the time (criticizing the union) they don't really care about kids." The utter and unchecked demagoguery that is evident in the leaders of this country's public education system is frightening. There are many Christians today who are every bit as radical or violent as the most violent Islamic extremists. Eric Rudolph or the shooters at abortion clinics, church arsonists, racist and homophobes, for example. I admit we have less violence but that is not to say the people are very different. Rest assured we are pretty much like others. You can't possibly be serious. You're contradicting yourself when you admit that violence is more prevalent with Islamists than with Christians and in the next sentence stating that we are all pretty much alike. Obviously not. In fact our extremists aren't even as violent as Islamists. Rudolph killed three people. Each of the 9/11 hijackers killed an average of 158. The average car bomb you see on TV kills more than 3 people. The numbers don't add up. Muslims are more violent and destructive than even the most extreme Christians. |
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 24, 2006 10:47:17 GMT -5
Ian,
Your post lacks logic - again if I kill one person is that Ok because my neighbor killed 10? I don't think so. And we have as many wackos as any other place but we have lives and supports, structures and prohibitions that make radical actions less likely. Things do not happen in a vacuum.
But consider a radical thought for a minute, did not our needless invasion of Iraq kill and maim thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqis? Get out your justice scale and weigh that one for me.
As for the fact that maybe unions have too much power or misuse it, is that any reason to throw the entire system out. Consider the current band of idiots in power in our own country, based on their abysmal actions and decisions should we give up on America?
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Post by TNRighty on Feb 24, 2006 20:10:49 GMT -5
Medican,
You are missing my point.
You said about public education, "it is the information deemed necessary for that particular society to survive and prosper."
Deemed necessary by who? The government? Is that what you want? Do you want the government telling you what is necessary for a society to survive, or would you rather make that choice for yourself? Do you want the government telling you which school you have to send your kids to? This is only a symptom of a much larger problem we face in this country.
As I stated in my last post, that's no different from the government telling you which grocery store you should shop at. After all, food is necessary for a society to survive, also. Hell, for that matter, so is shelter. Do you want the government telling you where to live? Do you want the government telling you which doctor you can see when you're sick? Do you want the government to tell you when you can retire? Do you want the government to provide child care?
You have no freedom when you depend on government to provide for you the essential needs of your life. It is sad that we have traded personal responsibility and economic freedom for government-provided security. In the history of the world, that has always been the downfall of free civilizations. I've said this before, but may the chains of government rest lightly on your chest, Medican. You would love Cuba.
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Post by Patriot on Feb 24, 2006 22:43:30 GMT -5
Midcan,
You wrote to Ian:
Your post lacks logic - again if I kill one person is that Ok because my neighbor killed 10? I don't think so.
Actually yes-- that is, if the person you killed was your neighbor. In which case, your neighbor's murderous rampage would be brought to an abrupt halt. Meanwhile, the wrongful deaths of his victims would be, to some extent, avenged by the execution of your neighbor.
Hence, I wouldn't be too quick to accuse Ian of lacking a logical thought process in his posts.
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Post by Ian on Feb 24, 2006 23:48:41 GMT -5
Your post lacks logic - again if I kill one person is that Ok because my neighbor killed 10? Who’s a bigger threat to the neighborhood, the person who kills one, or the person who kills ten? I don't think so. And we have as many wackos as any other place but we have lives and supports, structures and prohibitions that make radical actions less likely. Things do not happen in a vacuum. And of course we all know there aren’t any Christians in Indonesia or China or Latin America. You’re thinking in the US-centric terms you claim to detest. Christians are everywhere, in the richest areas and in the poorest. The only way to tell Christians apart from Muslims is that the Muslims are the ones running around cutting people’s heads off. But consider a radical thought for a minute, did not our needless invasion of Iraq kill and maim thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqis? Get out your justice scale and weigh that one for me. You’re suggesting the invasion of Iraq was a religious crusade? As for the fact that maybe unions have too much power or misuse it, is that any reason to throw the entire system out. Your side doesn’t acknowledge that there even is a problem or if they do the only solution they have is to throw more money at it. The public school system is a dismal failure. It’s not due to technology or spending considering we lead the world in both those categories. It’s not that American kids are inherently dumber than their Polish or South Korean counterparts because the test scores of young American children rank in the average. It’s only when American children are exposed to the school system for prolonged periods of time that their international rankings freefall. The only other possible cause when a deficiency of the student is ruled out is the deficiency of the establishment. Our entire economy is based on the principle of competition, why shouldn’t our schools be? What could possibly be the downside of schools competing to give your child the best education available? If a school doesn’t meet standards, parents should be able to send their children to one that does. Casting the American child into a blackhole of unionized gluttony, we have had the misfortune to experience first hand, is not a solid approach to education. The politically correct liberal wackos who are in charge of this county’s education system have been allowed to play craps with the futures of its children long enough. It’s time to take the power away from self serving demagogues like Randi Weingarten and put it in the hands of the people who actually do care about the kids, their parents. |
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 27, 2006 19:53:49 GMT -5
? The Iraq war was about religion ? that is an interesting question, considering the fool in office talks to god and get daily advice from her, maybe it was for him? Was it that for Cheney who seems more like a pawn shop clerk than a warrior? Some - you may be among them - are hoping for end time and Armageddon and while I believe Iraq was started by some cowardly men, most of whom never served this country in the military, religion could have played a part for some. Iraq was more about fear and vengeance and stupidity and poor judgment for me.
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Post by Ian on Feb 28, 2006 11:11:09 GMT -5
The Iraq war was about religion? that is an interesting question, considering the fool in office talks to god and get daily advice from her, maybe it was for him? Please, the religious Bush persona is merely another façade. You don’t actually believe Bush is a devote Christian do you? The Bush family, you may be shocked to learn, are shameless self-promoting globalists. They’re neither conservatives (i.e. Bush’s immigration policy) nor fundamentalist Christians (look up Bush Sr’s abortion stance pre-Reagan VP era). Remember that gay marriage amendment Dubya wagged in front of the Christian base during ‘04? I won’t blame you if you don’t because obviously neither does Dubya. Some - you may be among them - are hoping for end time and Armageddon Lmao Now I’m a religious zealot? Hmm, I should probably start going to church then… Iraq was more about fear and vengeance and stupidity and poor judgment for me. That’s exactly my point. The war in Iraq wasn’t waged in the name of a Christian God. Thousands of innocent Iraqis weren’t “killed” in the name of a Christian God. Islamists kill in the name of Allah. The 3000 killed on 9/11 were killed in the name of Allah. Your attempt to affix the Iraq war to the Christian community is baseless and really quite pathetic. |
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Post by midcan5 on Feb 28, 2006 13:07:29 GMT -5
And you know exactly what motivates Dumya ? And all his prayer, born again stuff, etc is all fake? Sorry I can't be that presumptuous - don't agree with you. For many of all faiths it is very real.
'May' - look it up but maybe church will help you feel better, so go, if you like.
I just told you what I think motivated the jackasses to enter Iraq and you backtrack!!! get with it. But again many think of this as endtime so that statement is accurate. But thank goodness religious wackos here only preach to the choir.
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