Draw a Cartoon...

[Ian]

...Go to HELL!!!

Nice to see some Europeans finally standing up to this cancer known as the Muslim World.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm

I'd like to see some American publications follow suit.

Now what we need is some action from political officials (don't hold your breath) or the various fascist groups around the continent to start to put an end to the ever emboldening Muslim population. I'm afraid the only soil rich enough for such a revolt is European as Americans have been bred since childhood to suppress any nationalistic instincts.

[midcan5]

I don't think the conservative press in the US would be willing or able to post those types of cartoons. Europe is a much more liberal place and they recognize more strongly the power of a free press and free speech.

Imagine for a moment caricatures of Jesus? Suppose we had him condemning the rich or giving to the poor? What an ironic statement that would be given the greed of corporate America which controls the current reality beliefs in this country.

You can't even get honest assessment of the poor policies of this administration in regard to such topics as environment or education. We have become a conservative country, too afraid of ideas. We are becoming what we think we are fighting.

[MO]

What the hell are you talking about, Midcan? We have Piss On Christ and Dung on Mary being funded by our tax dollars. The people who defend it as "free speech" are the ones most likely to condemn these cartoons as being hateful.

[scrap]

ian said:

...Go to HELL!!!

Nice to see some Europeans finally standing up to this cancer known as the Muslim World.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670370.stm

I'd like to see some American publications follow suit.

Now what we need is some action from political officials (don't hold your breath) or the various fascist groups around the continent to start to put an end to the ever emboldening Muslim population. I'm afraid the only soil rich enough for such a revolt is European as Americans have been bred since childhood to suppress any nationalistic instincts.

Hello Ian and happy belated birthday.

I've been absent from this board for awhile taking care of business on Military boards, which with my background is my first priority.

The holding back of the printing some of these articles such as the cartoons in the American Press is probably or at least hopefully due to the fact that we don't need any more fuel added to the fire.

While I agree with your perception of the Muslim population getting bolder, I have to think of our Troops that are in harms way.

The insurgents do not need another rallying cry to go after this Countries Military.

It may sound like it's backing down but until we get a better handle on the current operation, they don't need another additive to embolden them further

As for you Midcan,

Still stirring the pot with your ridiculous statements Huh?
Here's a link to some of what Mo was talking about.

www.cnn.com/books/news/9909/28/saatchi.book/index.html

[Ian]

Hey scrap! Great to see you back.


I respect your point that the American military bares the brunt of Muslim hostility, however I'm not in favor of the way the leadership in this country have been tweaking that military. I said prior to our invasion of Iraq that the best solution to this "problem" would have been to install an authoritarian government that was favorable/neutral/less hostile to the United States. I believed, as well as plenty of others on the right, that dangling the carrot of a democratic Middle East in front of the American military workhorse was neither the right, nor the most efficient way of dealing with our problems in the region. Filling the arms of American troops with shovels and hammers, in my humble opinion, will never solve military conflicts. You can’t win Muslim hearts and minds if they don’t exist. I am very much on the Michael Scheuer side of the argument if you hadn’t already guessed.

I suppose to clarify, my position on the cartoon issue is multi-faceted. While I believe the cartoons should be printed in the U.S. I agree with you that the current Bush military strategy prevents it. So I propose both a printing of the cartoons (as well as any other anti-Muslim material) and a switch to a more brutal, realistic military policy.


Thanks for the happy, and I hope you stick around.

[midcan5]

Mo, Art is an entirely different thing than a political/editorial cartoon or a cartoon poking fun at another's religion. Much Art is not shown in open places as it may offend. Sometimes that is its purpose. Art is complicated.

I have to admit I am not sure what to make of these cartoons depicting Mohammed. I feel you must respect or make fun of all religions equally, myths that they are.

Scrap, those are British artists, Europeans, not sure that is relevant. This is one person's Art not a person's attempt to enflame, or instigate or laugh at another.

Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor had it right. Jesus would not be accepted in our modern world.

[scrap]

Well it seems I'm outnumbered. The other forums I referred to earlier had a very similar topic as this.


It seems I'm in the minority about publishing these cartoons in the American Press.
Now while I don't mind being in the minority while espousing my views, it did give me pause.

I can understand most differences with the Left and some from the fence sitters and the not so Right Conservatives but this seemed like an onslaught from like minded people.

I find myself in the unenviable position of disagreeing with my compatriots, and I will try to clarify my position.

First off I also believe in a lot of what Scheuer has to say. I don't blindly follow what the Current Administration tells us, but being who I am and how I feel about the Military my loyalty is with them. That being said I have to go along with the current Commander-in-Chief, simply because of the Chain of Command.

These insurgents and terrorists don't need any more recruiting material to use against us. I found myself feeling good that someone else besides us were a target for their hatred for a change. That's a sad statement to make but an honest one.

It would feel like we were stooping to a lower level to go there.

It would serve no purpose and the end result is not worth it.

I realize I just rehashed my original post but I just don't know how to say it any plainer than this.

Quote:. Filling the arms of American troops with shovels and hammers, in my humble opinion, will never solve military conflicts

I take a bit of offense by your statement here. I hope you're using a metaphor, but even so I find it a bit off color.

Quote:I'm afraid the only soil rich enough for such a revolt is European as Americans have been bred since childhood to suppress any nationalistic instincts.

That's also a bold statement about a Country that has defended itself countless times by it's citizens and Military. You don't give us enough credit. I realize we have a tendency to fall back into our easy lifestyles after an initial cry out but don't count us out quite yet.


There's lots wrong in this Country at the moment and I guess I'll get myself over to Patriots rant topic and pick one of my pet peeves to bitch about. It will have to wait for another day tho.

[midcan5]

"A DEMOCRACY cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress: ossified, totalitarian and intolerant.""

"These are strong words — and no more palatable to many Muslims because they come from one of their own, the dissident Ibn Warraq in Germany's Der Spiegel."

www.theage.com.au/news/world/clash-of-the-cartoons/2006/02/10/1139542406165.html

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

Mo, Art is an entirely different thing than a political/editorial cartoon or a cartoon poking fun at another's religion. Much Art is not shown in open places as it may offend. Sometimes that is its purpose. Art is complicated.

I have to admit I am not sure what to make of these cartoons depicting Mohammed. I feel you must respect or make fun of all religions equally, myths that they are.

Scrap, those are British artists, Europeans, not sure that is relevant. This is one person's Art not a person's attempt to enflame, or instigate or laugh at another.

Art and editorial cartoons are different? So if someone was to work in some artful medium, let's say film, and used that medium to create an artistic depiction of the treatment of women in the Islamic world, Muslims would deal with the incident just as Christians do and not take any violent action?

That's odd because the film that I described appears eerily similar to the film that caused Theo Van Gogh to be shot and stabbed to death in the streets of Amsterdam. I don't remember Andres Serrano being shot dead in the streets after creating "Piss Christ" or Chris Ofili having his throat slit after creating “The Holy Virgin Mary”. Maybe I have to come out of my cave more often, but I haven't heard any news about David LaChapelle receiving death threats from outraged Christians after taking this photo of Kanye West:



In fact the New York Times hypocrisy is particularly glaring in this case considering columnists such as Frank Rich and Amei Wallach compared Rudy Giuliani’s threatened denial of tax payer funding “Piss Christ” to the Nazi condemnation of “degenerate art” and compared those who protested such art to Nazis.

I guess those 15 people who were killed in riots after Newsweek published the unsupported Koran story could have been spared if Newsweek had described the desecration as only a “work of art”. You’re splitting hairs.

scrap1207 said:

First off I also believe in a lot of what Scheuer has to say. I don't blindly follow what the Current Administration tells us, but being who I am and how I feel about the Military my loyalty is with them. That being said I have to go along with the current Commander-in-Chief, simply because of the Chain of Command.

Thankfully I'm not in the military yet so I can still criticize the blatantly poor military strategies the laymen and former "National Guard" members are putting forth. I'm not anti-military, I'm anti-Bush because I'm pro-military.

scrap1207 said:

I found myself feeling good that someone else besides us were a target for their hatred for a change. That's a sad statement to make but an honest one.

No, it's a reasoned statement to make, one you'll never hear the current administration utter. European countries do need to feel the wrath of Islam, the sooner they do the sooner they'll be disposed to crush it. The only thing Bush succeeds in doing by condemning the Dane cartoons is adding credibility to the opposition's argument (something Republicans have become near-experts at). Who would you rather have your president side with? A somewhat Muslim-hostile Denmark or the very Islamics who are killing our troops everyday? Knowing the depth of your patriotism scrap, I believe the answer is clear.

scrap1207 said:

It would serve no purpose and the end result is not worth it.

I believe, coupled with a more aggressive military strategy, that it would succeed in demonizing, to a point, the Muslim race we are currently at “war” with. The Administration will never admit it because their ignorance won’t permit them to, but this is a war between Muslims and the civilized world, not a war between a freedom-loving state and a “radical minority gone astray”. It should be fought like one.

scrap1207 said:

I take a bit of offense by your statement here. I hope you're using a metaphor, but even so I find it a bit off color.

No offense should have been taken. My point was one that has been illustrated throughout history. During the Punic Wars did the Romans conquer the Carthaginians by building them schools or hospitals? Of course not, by the end of the Third Punic War Roman soldiers went house to house slaughtering anyone they could find, and the 50,000 remaining were sold into slavery. At the end of WWII when faced with a unbalanced ground war with Japan, did Truman commission US soldiers to restore power to Tokyo and Yokohama? No, he dropped two atomic bombs until the Japanese submitted.

The point is no other successful military in history has won conflicts by winning “hearts and minds”. The Muslim population seems to be particularly void of both these qualities, so I see no hope of a principal historic change today.

scrap1207 said:

That's also a bold statement about a Country that has defended itself countless times by it's citizens and Military. You don't give us enough credit. I realize we have a tendency to fall back into our easy lifestyles after an initial cry out but don't count us out quite yet.

I was in no way questioning this country’s stellar record of defense, a record my grandfather and father between them spent 12 years of their lives contributing to. However, I do question severely the resolve of the MTV generation. Children and young adults today, I would think you would agree with, are taught a sense of self-loathing by the liberal-controlled academic establishment. The images of the Founding Fathers are routinely impugned. Rather then teach of the immense military and political achievements of those great men, children are told to question their moral character on the basis that they were slave owners. I could run through a 2 page list, but I feel I’ve ranted sufficiently long enough.

So in summation (at last), I question not the history of this country, but the future. In an era of gluttonous political correctness, I fear this country is in real danger of following very closely the Roman model. An unparalleled superpower only to be dominated by its own indolence and romanticism and replaced by the savages it once so sharply contrasted.

[TNRighty]

Hello friends,

I'm jumping into this argument a little late, but I'd like to offer a few opinions.

In his defense of "art" and Piss Christ Medican had this to say...

"Art is an entirely different thing than a political/editorial cartoon or a cartoon poking fun at another's religion. Much Art is not shown in open places as it may offend. Sometimes that is its purpose. Art is complicated."

I guess next time we want to make fun of Islam we should do it in water color and display it in a museum. Would that make you happy, Medican? Would that make it an official work of "art"? Could we display it beside Tampon Mary? If we submerge a Mohammad doll in a mason jar full of piss will you be O.K. with that? I guess its OK with you if I paint a picture of Allah with a brush full of human diahareah dung. The Muslims will be down with it as long as its in a museum and not a newspaper.

Anyways, thats not the point here, but I couldn't resist engaging Medican in his stupidity.

Art, cartoon, whatever. It doesn't matter. There's a bigger picture.

Look at the history of Islam. Wherever it has gone it has brought with it violence and bloodshed. They've been killing people and blowing shit up for a long time. A newspaper publishes cartoons depicting the violent nature of radical islam, and they react by killing people and blowing shit up. What did you expect?

Sometimes humor is the best way to make a point, and the Muslim reaction to these cartoons actually proves the point the cartoons were making.

[midcan5]

TNRightWacky, since you brought up stupidity I thought maybe a lesson was necessary. If you go into a store and ask for an apple and they give you an orange would you notice the difference? Art is art, editorial is editorial. Get dictionary if you need more help. As far as making me happy, lots of things make me happy but your examples to use your words are stupid.

And your next statement is even more brilliant, have you ever studied the history of Christianity? Lots of bad stuff there too. Extremists exist and some are Muslim and some are Christian and some even live in the US, imagine that for a minute? The truth is, and few recognize it, is that man is pretty much the same everywhere.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

And your next statement is even more brilliant, have you ever studied the history of Christianity? Lots of bad stuff there too. Extremists exist and some are Muslim and some are Christian and some even live in the US, imagine that for a minute? The truth is, and few recognize it, is that man is pretty much the same everywhere.

And the Crusades took back the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey etc.. that Christians inhabited from roughly 200 A.D. to 900 A.D. until the growing Muslim population brutally seized it by enslaving, deporting and murdering them. While TNRighty is reading his book on Christianity, you might want to pick one up on the Crusades.

Regardless of what has happened in the past, the most problematic group today are the Muslims and they must be dealt with. The world will never defeat current day extremism by concentrating on past day extremism. When modern-day Christians begin wreaking havoc on the scale of modern day Muslims (killing three thousand people at Mecca or doing the usual silly beheading stuff) instead of giving food, clothing and shelter to them, I'll welcome a cartoon of Jesus on the cross with a dynamite belt.

[MO]

[MO]

What other religions may have done in the dark ages is not the point, midcan. This isn't a religious issue but one of freedom of speech and freedom of the press that the western world embraces.

Don't want to see political cartoons about Islam? Carry your ass to Saudi Arabia.

I'll say it for the thousandth time. ISLAM IS NOT JUST A RELIGION, BUT A SYSTEM OF CIVIL GOVERNMENT! Therefore, it can't be considered beyond reproach for ridicule and debate any more than any other government system. It's a perfectly appropriate topic for political cartoonists.

[midcan5]

Mo, that is a curious statement coming from a conservative, given the con effort to allow more religion back into government, especially in schools and personal privacy issues, as well as gay issues.