The Liberal?

[midcan5]

Bolo,

They are not meant to be read straight through and analyzed, they are concepts that tie together conservative thinking. I can back up those that talk business administration as this administration is mostly about supporting the big guys. But I usually post on Politic.com and they are back on line. See near the bottom of this post (9/13) as I am working these things out still. I am not sure why you think as you do I find it bizarre and interesting but time is short, take care.

www.politics.com/discussion.html?cid=2&mid=277664#279655

[BOLO]

Bush was a draft dodger to most in our generation -

No he isn't. Can you read? I said I am a Nam Vet. I served in Nam. President Bush is not considered a traitor by my generation. You gave yourself away.

No, all soldiers were not liberal but neither were they conservative if truth be known here,

The truth be know everywhere except in Liberal circles. There it is a stranger.
Again, I said. Soldiers are soldiers not politicians.
I don't think you have any experience there at all.

Iraq was started by Bush

It was started by Saddam. The UN jumped on his failures to comply. See what i mean about the truth being a stranger to Liberals. It is right there for you to see and you ignore it because it does not fit your Liberal concepts.

That division is a creation of conservative think tanks - enemies (labeling enemies) always bring people together

The only one I see labeling is you. Liberal.
Produce some studies on that. Cite some statistics and facts. That ought to be fun.

you may not think that but that has nothing to do with the feeling of most who actually served.

Which part of I served did you miss? I can prove it. How about you? I don't think you did, you don't talk right.

I think it is fair to say that WWII was ended by liberal democratic presidents

Sure you do. I don't. It was ended by Soldiers fighting until the enemy surrendered.

PS Eisenhower was very liberal while a republican

No he wasn't. He was the epitome of a Republican during that Era. You do try don't you.
Straw arguments? You made a bunch, none of which you have supported or bolstered yet.
Your eyes are Brown.

[BOLO]

I didn't say Bush had a deferment - I would say it is quite obvious he had special consideration.

President Bush made the request to go to VietNam. It was denied. Reason. He was qualified on a Fighter that was becoming obsolete. The time it would have taken to train him was disappearing as the War wound down, and his enlistment expired. He still made the request and offered to go as an Adminstrator.
They had all kinds of those. Request denied.
The Jet he flew was one of the hardest to fly and had a reputation as a widow maker.
I don't think that's special consideration.
He applied like everyone else and went through the Vetting process. He was accepted despite the fact that at that time Texas was controlled by Democrats.

[BOLO]

They are not meant to be read straight through and analyzed, they are concepts that tie together conservative thinking. I can back up those that talk business administration as this administration is mostly about supporting the big guys. But I usually post on Politic.com and they are back on line. See near the bottom of this post (9/13) as I am working these things out still. I am not sure why you think as you do I find it bizarre and interesting but time is short, take care.

Talk about Straw arguments.
That is ridiculous. The sum of the whole is all the parts.
Your parts did not fit. Ergo the sum is null or minus.
So go back to your Liberal buddies if you feel comfortable there.
When everyone talks the same trash you have a landfill.
;D

[midcan5]

Bolo,

Why do some (conservatives?) grab the text of a message break it in pieces and then attempt to debate it? If media were to take words out of context would you not criticize them? Again I did not say Bush was a traitor, that's a pretty strong word and you use it not I. The person who granted Bush special consideration said so - that is a fact - how can you deny a fact? But we lived through those times, my HS lost the most kids in the country I believe. And in Philadelphia among those who served draft dodger was a common term, let's face many did not want to serve during those times. Many stayed in school or even got married some started a family, some joined the guard. Check out Cheney's record. The Iraq war was started by Bush, to deny that is again to deny reality. Yes, there were lots of things going on concerning the UN and sanctions but Bush has the ultimate responsibility for it. Why? I am still really not sure, as the situation there was less dangerous for us than Iran or N. Korea. I think it is one of the greatest blunders of American policy ever. But that is me.

Soldiers have commanders, commanders have bosses, the buck stops somewhere. If soldiers decided war they would do as they did at times in WWI. They would sit in their foxholes and mutually agree not to fight.

Your defense of Bush is interesting and from all I have read untrue. But Nam was tough and rich kids all did that, why is that so hard to accept. Again that is the way the world works, we just need to some be honest about it.

I disagree on Eisenhower, I see it more as policies and his priorities. When I use liberal I probably mean something different than you. Rockefeller was liberal as is McCain. Nixon was middle of the road as was Clinton. Goldwater, Reagan, and Bush Jr. are conservative. Personally I see conservative policy either stopping or moving us back as a nation and as a society. Both Nixon and Clinton did some good stuff so I consider both part of the good guys in real policy. I was just in Nixon's Library not long ago.

The memes are frames of thought. Do this, listen to Limbaugh or Coulter or Hannity and pay attention to the emphasis. Try like heck to be that alien who has no knowledge of the rhetoric of the right. Key words and ideas are often repeated but not explained because they constitute code language. And enjoy this nice but cold day, hope Santa was good to you.

I use liberal - small l - purposely since it is the bad word of our current political dialog.


"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward."
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt, radio speech, October 26, 1939.

[BOLO]

Bush was a draft dodger to most in our generation

{Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers. }
The large majority of Men serving in the Armed Forces during Viet Nam were Volunteers. A small % were drafted. (See above)
This little statement of yours, had you truly been of my generation, would have equated to an accusation of Traitor.
Ergo, my substituting the word was a Faux Pas based on the language of my generation.
You still made a derogatory statement where he is concerned.
Understand this. I am not a Republican. I have problems with President Bush on several issues, all of which are Domestic and Constitutionally associated.
However, he was no Draft Dodger and you can not prove that. Does that make everyone that got a deferment a draft dodger? (There were many, including a certain Arkansas born sex addict) No. Unless you are willing to take one paint brush and apply a coat of paint to everyone. Which, in that case, makes you wrong. Which you already are.
All you are doing is making childish assertions based on Liberal beliefs and the fact that you all lost. It's nothing more than Nya,Nya. Immature to the max.
Did you fly one of the meanest Jets around with a reputation for being a widow maker? No. Why not?
Did you dodge that onerous duty?

Why do some (conservatives?) grab the text of a message break it in pieces and then attempt to debate it?

Liberals don't do that?
Are you going to continue pressing this asinine idea that your argument or assertions are cognizant and special because you presented on a different and higher plain?
Your presentation was specious at best. It's been ripped apart and found to have no foundation making it tenuous also.
Are you a practitioner of Neologism?

If media were to take words out of context would you not criticize them

Which is exactly what they do all the time and has nothing to do with your homily. It deserved to be torn apart as it was not true or accurate. It did not describe Conservatives. I nailed the Liberals. Tear it apart, if you can.

The person who granted Bush special consideration said so - that is a fact - how can you deny a fact

That person was later deemed to be a liar and facts were produced to prove he did not have one damn thing to do with President Bush going in to the Texas Air National Guard. Now that's a fact jack so how do you go about denying both the truth and a fact?
BTW the liar was a Liberal and was not even in office when the application was made.

But we lived through those times, my HS lost the most kids in the country

I wouldn't know. We did not have any Kids serving over there when I was there for my three tours. They are kids when it serves your purpose and men when it does not. Typical Liberal.
If your HS is Pa, that is a place I know well. Show me some Stats and well talk. Otherwise I do not think Pa had the highest losses of men of all the states.

Check out Cheney's record

See above. Specious. Incorrect, and an insult to all. Draft Dodgers were those who went to other Countries such as Canada to escape the draft. You really are not of my generation at all. What is laughably funny is that the great majority of those who fled where not even in danger of being drafted. The very large majority of us that served in Nam did not care about these idiots and we did not want them serving with us.

Yes, there were lots of things going on concerning the UN and sanctions but Bush has the ultimate responsibility for it.

You keep wanting to assign blame and responsibility to everyone but the individual that owns it. Saddam. That's all folks. Saddam brought down on his own head what happened. Saddam was responsible for what happened to him no one else.
And that is not just me that is 60 million other believers.

as the situation there was less dangerous for us than Iran or N. Korea.

That is your unconsidered and unsubstantiated opinion.
N. Korea is not the danger you make it out to be, and 'yes' I served there too, right on the DMZ. I was there three years in South Korea. My ex wife was a Korean and her parents were from N Korea. The danger they present is to themselves. Not even the Chinese are going to put up with them playing with nuclear weapons. One indication that they fired, and Blooey, no more NK. Horseradish. Try that boogie man on some one else it won't work on the intelligent masses, which we are.

Soldiers have commanders, commanders have bosses, the buck stops somewhere

Now that is pure HorseS. It is (for the last time) Soldiers fighting the war that bring it to an end. If you think a Commander can do it, then let's just let the Commanders go out and administrate each other to death. As one that has fought in a War I can tell you that would suit me just fine. However after they administrate each other to death the reasons for the conflict will still exist and the fight will continue until one side is so defeated they surrender.
Commanders worth their Salt will tell you that the War is won by soldiers. (Which is why I suspect you never served) You talk strategy. No strategy survives contact. Not one, not ever. The terminology is "The President or Commander led his troops too Victory". Not, "The President or Commander fought on to victory". Troops do that. Not Commanders.

If soldiers decided war they would do as they did at times in WWI.

You only read part of History don't you?
Not true. What you are referring to was a physically and spiritually exhausted military and only a few units at that, that had grown weary and despondent and had low morale. These were called Trench Mutinies and did not last long. Most notable was the Nivelle offensive.
All involved Non American Units and most happened before we got there. It was morale more than anything else. My grand Father was with the 81st Pennsylvania (Inf Regiment, now a Division) in WW I. He had five purple hearts. Doesn't sound like some one that sat in a trench.
Those occasions were few and far between. Most notable was those that occurred at Christmas time. The facts are the War was fought and won. It did not die aborning or go away.

Your defense of Bush is interesting and from all I have read untrue.

I do not defend President Bush the facts do. You need to read more, or less, of that Liberal distortion.
Every assertion you have made has been untrue.

But Nam was tough and rich kids all did that, why is that so hard to accept.

No Kidding. Nam was tough? Wow, who would have thunk it. Rich kids did what? In my unit were two members of a very blue blooded family. Millionaires in their own right. sitting on top of my Trac with M14's in hand. B.S.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
My younger brother got a deferment. We were certainly not rich on a U.S. Navy Petty Officer 1st Classer's pay. Wake up man. Smell the coffee. Real life is not what you read in Liberal rags.

I disagree on Eisenhower, I see it more as policies and his priorities. When I use liberal I probably mean something different than you. Rockefeller was liberal as is McCain. Nixon was middle of the road as was Clinton. Goldwater, Reagan, and Bush Jr. are conservative. Personally I see conservative policy either stopping or moving us back as a nation and as a society. Both Nixon and Clinton did some good stuff so I consider both part of the good guys in real policy. I was just in Nixon's Library not long ago.

Waffle House any one? Want to order out or eat in?
Your intent was quite clear and playing with words or parsing sentences will not bail you out.
Eisenhower was a Conservative Republican as Conservative Republicans were defined at the time.
Classic Democrats still existed but were being replaced by Liberals. Many switched parties rather than stick around for that eventuality. Which is how the Republican Party ended up with Thurmond and some others.
President Bush is more left than right.
He is a Republican (more than a Conservative) but not a hardliner and drifts toward center more than anything else.
Checkers thanks you for the visit to the library.

The memes are frames of thought

Yes. Erroneous cultural thought but cultural thought never the less.
The repeated action is the continual assault on reality by Liberals through the distortion of facts by the same.
Ones I disagreed with and ones you could not support.
Here is a picture of my driver (rich kid too, had a degree, and everything including a House in Palo Alto Caif.), and my trac as we relax in the, anything but tough, VieNam War.
www.afreeimagehost.com/upload/1433/Cua Viet 7.bmp[/IMG]
A Liberal is someone that has never walked any other way than sideways and away from reality. (Author: Me)

[midcan5]

Bolo,

Hmmm, I think we need to agree that we disagree. Take care. Nice picture.

read down
www.virtualwall.org/db/BenseJF01a.htm

[BOLO]

To whom ever that was. Salute.
Phillie. I know the area. Lived on the South Side. Passayunk. Wherry Housing.
Maternal side is Pa. Washington.
As to our dis agreeing. Actually no. You disagree. With the truth. And so it goes.
I won't send along mine. Too many.

[midcan5]

Bolo,

Hmmm, show me something specific that was untrue?

"That person was later deemed to be a liar and facts were produced to prove he did not have one damn thing to do with President Bush going in to the Texas Air National Guard. Now that's a fact jack so how do you go about denying both the truth and a fact?
BTW the liar was a Liberal and was not even in office when the application was made."

Is this man lying? Why would he be a liberal? Can he not speak out?

"Ben Barnes, a former speaker of the Texas House who has said he got George W. Bush into the National Guard in 1968, told an audience of John Kerry supporters in Austin on May 27 that he was ashamed of his role."

"I walked through the Vietnam Memorial the other day," Mr. Barnes said, according to a videoclip posted on the Internet this summer, "and I looked at the names of people who died in Vietnam and I became more ashamed of myself than I've ever been because the worst thing I did was get a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance into the Guard and I'm very sorry about that and I apologize to you and the voters of Texas."

The right today does what communism or totalitarianism has often done. It denies or re-writes history to align with its view. It also engages in the fascist tactic of labeling the enemy so the enemy ceases to be another human with a different point of view. This I find scary. The exegesis below is a good piece for those open to ideas.

www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.phpTEXT

[BOLO]

Ben Barnes' daughter:
Father lied about Bush
Radio show confirms ID of female caller, called dad's CBS interview 'opportunistic'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: September 10, 2004
1:43 p.m. Eastern
By Art Moore
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

The daughter of former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes says her father fabricated claims made on "60 Minutes II" that he used his influence to help President Bush avoid going to Vietnam 36 years ago.

Amy Barnes Stites telephoned the Mark Davis radio show on WBAP in Dallas yesterday and described her father as a political opportunist who lied about Bush's National Guard record to help promote his upcoming book, elect John Kerry and "make Bush look like the bad person."

Jeff Williams, producer of the Mark Davis show, told WorldNetDaily that after independent confirmation, his staff is now certain that the woman who phoned in identifying herself as Amy from Denton, Texas, is Barnes' daughter.

"We are without any doubt that it is her," Williams said.

WBAP now has a recording of the conversation linked to its website.

The show was hosted yesterday by Monica Crowley of WABC in New York, who also is a Fox News Channel contributor.
Here is an excerpt:

STITES: I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fund-raiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with ... . He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.
CROWLEY: Did he tell you, Amy - and I'm glad I have you on the line with me - did your father tell you that he was prepared to do this on behalf of John Kerry - go after President Bush like this?

STITES: He told me he was going to do it. In fact I talked to him a couple of months ago. He told me he was writing the book. He told me that he was going to be talking about this. And he knows that I - we have very diverse political opinions. He knows my opinions and we get into this debate every time I see him. But, you know, he said that he was going to be talking about it.

CROWLEY: Now you're saying, Amy, that he has had two separate stories on President Bush's Guard duty during the Vietnam era?

STITES: Yes, yes. This came out in 2000 and I asked him then, at the time, if he [helped get Bush into the Guard]. He said, "No, absolutely not. I did not do that."

CROWLEY: So, I hate to put you in this position but I will ask you, do you think your father, Ben Barnes - who was on "60 Minutes II" with Dan Rather last night - do you believe that he lied on the air to the American people last night about President Bush?

STITES: Yes, I do. I absolutely do. And I think he's doing for purely political, opportunistic reasons - trying to get John Kerry elected and trying to make Bush look like the bad person. ... Like I said, he's going to be trying to promote his book that he's got coming out.

Here's the good part. Pay attention now.

In a video excerpt posted on the Internet and reported by CBS News online, Barnes stated: "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard when I was lieutenant governor of Texas, and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it."

TEXTBut Barnes was not lieutenant governor when Bush entered the National Guard in 1968. He was state House speaker at the time and became lieutenant governor in 1969.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40396
or

www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/9/202100.shtml

Heres another.

frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993

Excerpt from above,

Ben Barnes was born in 1938 in De Leon, Texas southwest of Fort Worth. After graduating from the University of Texas and earning a law degree from Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Barnes in 1960, at age 22, was elected to the Texas House of Representatives. He served there until 1969, the last four of these years as the youngest Speaker of the House in Texas history. From 1969 until 1973 Barnes was the state’s Lt. Governor.

President Lyndon B. Johnson compared the young political wunderkind to Thomas Jefferson and predicted that Ben Barnes would be the next Texan elected President. The leftwing Texas Monthly called Barnes the “golden boy” of Texas politics.

But “after he was involved in a bribery and stock fraud scandal in the early 1970s,” wrote leftwing Mother Jones Magazine, Barnes “never held office again. He was involved with a number of banks and thrifts that were mentioned during the S&L crisis, and forced into bankruptcy when the Texas thrift industry cratered in the late 1980s.”<br>
By the late 1990s Barnes had become a millionaire lobbyist working for GTech, a company that operated lotteries in 37 states including Texas. The Texas lottery was losing money, in part because of a sweetheart deal in which Barnes received 3.5 cents for every ticket sold – more than $3 million per year. When the Texas lottery commission re-bid GTech’s contract, the company sued and – after buying Barnes out for $23 million – hired a new lobbyist. A fired Texas lottery director sued, claiming that he had taken the fall for GTech because Barnes had a National Guard story embarrassing to then-Governor George W. Bush.

Barnes, facing potential charges of yet more wrongdoing, told his National Guard story in a deposition in a successful effort to politically deflect his own responsibility in this matter. In multiple re-tellings since 1999, the details of Barnes’ story have changed several times. Its gist is Barnes’ claim that when he was the Democratic Lt. Governor he intervened to get Republican Houston Congressman George H.W. Bush’s son George W. into the Texas Air National Guard (alongside the sons of Governor John Connally and Senator Lloyd Bentsen, Democrats). Barnes now says he is “ashamed” of this. Trouble is, George W. Bush began the first of six years’ service in the National Guard in 1968, but Barnes did not become Lt. Governor of Texas until 1969. Barnes has acknowledged that no member of the Bush family sought his help, but claims he was approached by a Bush family friend (who died three years before Barnes began telling his self-serving story).

Because Barnes’ tale rests solely on his word, how good is his word? Given his long past of shady dealings, the shipwreck of his career on scandal, and the changes and inconsistencies of his story, Barnes appears to be less than a credible witness.

More doubt is raised by this partisan Democrat’s motives. Barnes promoted an earlier version of his story in 1999 and 2000 in a clear attempt to damage the presidential campaign of George W. Bush. And Barnes apparently has had the same aim in reviving this story, long ago discredited by an investigation by the liberal Los Angeles Times, in 2004. As CNN reported in 1999, “the Los Angeles Times said it found no evidence that either Bush or his father, former President George Bush, had personally tried to influence or pressure anyone to get the younger Bush a place in the Texas Guard.”<br>
Ben Barnes has a large vested interest in the outcome of the 2004 election. He is a co-chairman of John F. Kerry’s 2004 presidential campaign. Barnes, as CBS News reported in June 2004, has made bundled contributions of more than $500,000 to Kerry’s campaign. Barnes owns a home near his friend Kerry’s home in Nantucket on the Massachusetts shore.

Cont'd on next Post.

[BOLO]

Barnes Under Oath

Under Oath, Barnes Testified He Had No Contact With Bush Family Concerning National Guard. "Ben Barnes, then the speaker of the Texas House, said in 1999 that Sidney Adger, a Houston businessman and longtime friend of the Bush family whose son also won a slot in the 147th, had asked him to help get Mr. Bush into the Guard. Mr. Barnes, who acknowledged a role only after he was questioned under oath, also said that he had spoken to the head of the Texas Air National Guard on Mr. Bush's behalf, but had no contact with anyone in the Bush family. And there is no direct evidence that Mr. Bush's family pulled strings to get him into the 147th. Mr. Bush is firmly on record denying it, as is the commander of the unit, and there is no paper trail showing any influence by the Bush family." (David Barstow, "In Haze Of Guard Records, A Bit Of Clarity," The New York Times, 2/15/04)

Barnes Said Reports He Helped Bush At His Father's Urging Were "False." "Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes denied a magazine report Thursday that he helped George W. Bush get a place in the Texas Air National Guard at the urging of Bush's father. Bush, the Republican presidential front-runner, has repeatedly denied that he received preferential treatment in being accepted into the Guard during the Vietnam War. 'I never spoke to Congressman Bush about his son,' Barnes said Thursday. 'The story is false.'" (Renae Merle, "Barnes Denies Report That He Helped Bush Into The National Guard," The Associated Press, 7/15/99)

In Fall Of 1999, Barnes Said Bush Family Never Asked To Get President Bush Into National Guard. "Mr. Bush has consistently said he never requested special treatment, though Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House in 1968, said in 1999 that he had been asked by a Houston businessman -- not by the Bush family -- to recommend Mr. Bush for a pilot's slot, and that he had done so." (David M. Halbfinger, "Three Decades Later, Vietnam Remains A Hot Issue," The New York Times, 8/29/04)

discuss.agonist.org/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=20444

www.foodservicerumors.com/JW%20Politics%20Folder/September%2018,%202004,%20kerry%20last%20ditch%20weapon.htm

Hmmm, show me something specific that was untrue?

Done. With pleasure. But no more. I am not your research station. Do your own and learn.

Is this man lying? Why would he be a liberal? Can he not speak out?

He is an avowed Liberal and member of the Democrat party. 1+1=2. Democrat = Liberal. (Unless they are Classic Liberals, which the majority of the Party is not.)
Now as to you. Either do the research or don't.
If you do and you find there are two sides to a story make your conclusions based on the two sides not just the one that bolsters your Liberal beliefs.
If you don't and all you are going to present is distortions and lies based on reading only the Liberal side or output then discuss anything further with your self.
If that man in the memorial, as I suspect, was your Father then how do you go about saying you

served during Nam

A discussion must be based on everyone being forthright and presenting opinions or facts that are provable.
Bottom line, You are not.
Barnes was, and is a Liar, and it was proved. For you not to know that is incredible. It is a clear indication you are Blinded by your ideology and Liberal beliefs.
These were not secrets. They were on Fox, NBC, ABC, CNN, Etc, Etc.

[midcan5]

Bolo,
No one on the site was my father, he is still alive and kicking and was a gunner on an Avenger during WWII. You had asked for a reference on Vietnam deaths, that's what that was about. Skim down the link. I did not know the primary person listened on the site, I did know several of the Judge graduates.

Your references are interesting as you only hear of them if you live in your world. I do not mean that as a criticism (well I do but that is another post) but I would question and challenge strongly apologists for any ideology. I assume you are a family person, would you go on radio and call your father an opportunist? doesn't that seem a bit difficult to believe? And why would you not go to ABC if you thought it was so wrong? His comments on being LtGov were corrected by him. It is what he actually did that matters. You are right that others would give a different point of view. But if the basic facts are: there was a long waiting list and he scored low on the testing and he got in anyway, the preponderance of evidence points to the Barnes' position. But hey, we know that, connections matter, anyone who doubts that lives in never-never land. Not sure why we even debate this.

I tried to confirm the second part of the daughter about a book and could not find one on Amazon or Google. My suspicion is this part of the propaganda machine of the far right that creates, distorts, or re-writes news and history to fit its world view. The piece I supplied about Rush Limbaugh gives specific examples. As you say, research it yourself but people don't have time to research everything they hear and if they lean one way or the other they often listen to news that confirms their prejudices. Liberals revaluate their position if it is wrong - I do have to check one item, I am not sure now my HS lost the most in Nam. Nothing to brag about but i need to check. later

Find me something untrue that is harder to strongly doubt or disprove.

media.greaterdemocracy.org/

[BOLO]

Find me something untrue that is harder to strongly doubt or disprove.

No.
You may continue this without me.
You make it obvious that the truth is not what you seek.
You are a lost cause until you grow up.

[midcan5]

Bolo,
Geez, you quit too quick. Do we ever grow up? I am 57 now and life goes so fast. Sorry but I cannot and will never give up the critical American spirit. We used to fight but it was against an enemy not a label. Even conservatives spoke out against what was wrong. I heard Buchanan speak recently, sounded like an old fashioned American Conservative and while I disagree with much he stands for, it was refreshing. Take care.

[scrap]

Quote: No one on the site was my father, he is still alive and kicking and was a gunner on an Avenger during WWII.

I don't mean to jump in the middle of this but I thought Midcan5 would like to check out the link below.

My father in law also was a gunner on an Avenger and there's some pics and alot of info on the site.

Check out the Gilbert Islands link and see if anything or anybody looks familiar.

One never knows. Good luck

www.adamsplanes.com/