Treating people well

[Dylan]

It seems really funny that there be an argument against treating people like shi* on a right wing website. You are for treating people decently but not giving them a living wage or benefits. I see this as a very tangible way of treating people well. I agree that service workers should not be treated like dumb grunts, hell I work in the service industry and it happens to me sometimes. Like you said, we're all working to feed ourselves and possibly our families, so what's the problem with working towards that goal using the tool of a union, the only real tool available to those ground beneath the wheels of industry. Anyway, that's my rant and I'm sticking to it.

[e-mail]

[Mo]

In the town where I live, the union is not trying to get into any of the places that pay min. wage. They are trying to get into the factory that starts people at three times the min. wage! Why? Because they are in it to make money off the backs of hard working Americans, and extort money from companies who ARE giving them a living wage!

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to the "right wing" as being against a living wage and benefits. I assume you mean the conservative politicians who vote against raising the min. wage. I don't think there should be any min. wage, just as there should be no maximum wage. Let the market determine what a job is worth. The left wing assumes this hurts the 'lil guy, but the little guy deseves the chance to open his own buisness, too. The best way for the govt. to grow the economy is to stay out of the way of the creation of small buisness. I know people who are self-employed who would love to hire someone, but there are so many hoops of fire to jump through to comply with fed. law. Why keep passing more laws to make things harder for the people who are creating jobs?

Are wages "fair" when you compare different jobs? Absolutely not! Why are the factory workers making three times min. wage, when the lady who is lifting grandparents in and out of the bath tub and feeding them making almost nothing? These problems will not be solved by labor unions or passing new laws. These inequities will be changed when people's values change!

[dylan]

The market helps create the values that a society lives by. The pocket book ultimately pits personal values against thier real cost. When most people do not make enough to support themselves, let alone save for their retirement or pay for their parents care, the belief that we should help care for the elderly falls away.

I do not deny that unions sometimes act in their own interests before that of the people that they represent. Unions usually only go into a work place when they have been asked by members of that work place to come in. This creates a problem at the bottom of the employment scale, as they do not feel that their job security is enough to warrant being able to bring in a union. How about health care? Those at the bottom are often paid minimum wage or only slightly more and do not receive benefits. These are the people that keep the place clean, an important job at a hospital. They work in a dangerous environment, cleaning dangerous substances, working around viruses and bacteria. The Union is not all about the wage. That is important but benefits are even more important.

If you don't like paying union dues but want the security that a union may bring you could start your own. You'd realize how much work it is to organize. But even if you did start a union, right wing politicians and groups (I include moral conservatives, fiscal concervatives, Libertarians, and so called neoliberals that believe in freetrade and privatization in this mix) have systematically attempted to destroy a workers ability to fight for a decent wage or benefits. I classify this as anti-union though you don't absolutely need a union to help you do this. The market is not controlled by some invisible hand that improves the lot of those at the bottom. The market is a siphon that draws wealth from resources and those at the bottom (also a resource according to economics) giving back as little as it can. Adam Smith, was present and created his theories when the market system was new and it wasn't apparent how wealth could be maintained in it. Those who were able to utilise the system in those days, before a real hegemony had been created in the market system, were the people who needed it to fight the power of monarchies. Like when the internet became public people were amazed at it's facility for communication and said that it owuld do all sorts of absurd things that have obviously not happened. It has become a television of sorts only better, able to actually sell you what it is telling you to buy. I do enjoy places like this where people can discuss their views openly. It is the greatest thing on the internet.

[Mo]

The market does NOT influence my values!

I have not taken any economics (I'm arts and humanity) but it seems to me that if your economic theory were correct, almost everyone would be making min. wage. Why should some pimple faced kid flipping burgers be paid a living wage with benefits? He needs to get his financial house in order before he starts a family. The people I know that make min. wage can't support themselves alone, but do fine with a room-mate. I'm not going to cry in my beer because some people have to have a room-mate, I had too when I was in school! Besides, the only thing I want floating in my beer is my liver!

Every BODY has it's price. I think most people make what they think they're worth. I read a study that placed identical help-wanted adds in newspapers, one paying 30k a year and one paying 90k a year. The 30K job got more applicants by 20/1. Often times, the only difference between a 30k and a 90k employee is self-worth, and the b.s.ing skills to stretch a resume.

Don't kill all the bacteria, it's the only culture some people have!

[dylan]

I would like to know how you know that the market has not influenced your values? I was speaking of even such simple things as looking for the best value in food items. The urge to save a dime is a value and it has been propped up by the market. A market that causes necessary resources to be used against the will of those who are affected by them. In a smoking household (I happen to live in one but I don't have children and am of age to make that decision for myself) the child pays a price for the adult's habit, in this case the price is unhealthy lungs. Now this I feel is rightly blamed on the parent for smoking indoors. I believe that people can do what they want but they must realize that what they do affects those around them and at least attempt to minimize the harmful effects they cause. Why are producers of goods and services often not blamed for the pollution that they cause? This is a harmful effect for their worker and for those who live in the area near the plant. They are usually not reimbursed for the costs incurred upon them by the business that affects their health or by the consumers that benefit from the lower cost of a product that is produced without controls or with lax controls on runoff and other forms of pollution. These producers and consumers have been rewarded for not being conscious of the environment in which the good is produced. Do you value the future of your family? Everyday, companies are making a profit by putting them at risk. Another point is that the market shapes the values of our society. Do you suppose that you are completely free of societal influence? How about your parents.

I do not know where you live but in Chicago it is very difficult to live on minimum wage. Even if you are working 60 hour weeks at two jobs it is next to impossible to scrape by. When you don't make enough to save any of it it is next to impossible to move, which costs money even if you have a job lined up for your arrival.

In general I don't think people feel that they could not do the 90k job, I would guess that it is more that they don't feel that they could get the job. Why spend time and money to try to get a job you believe that you couldn't get. This, I think, is caused by employers always looking to pay the lowest possible wage/salary. The other thing is that 90k starting jobs usually aren't in the paper unless it is a specialized field and they require credentials or previous work experience. Couldn't some people not believe that job as it sounds too good to be true. Does this mean that you think that the pay differential between women and men at the same job is because the women feel that they are worth less? I don't know, I've talked with alot of women that think it's just unfair treatment. Or for that matter does a airline steward, who is paid less than his stewardess coworkers think he is worth less than the stewardess? Or do these people feel that they have to take a hit because their sex is underrepresented in whatever field?

Statistics should always be suspect, including mine.

I am not sure What you mean by my economic theory, I'm answering what I think you mean by that. Employers would like to pay their employees the smallest amount that they can. This does not mean that they will automatically drop down to minimum wage as some employees have qualities and skills they desire in their employees. If the employee feels that they can make more money somewhere else or on their own and they can switch jobs or start a new business, this means that if a valued employee is looking like they will leave then the employer should give them a raise or suffer the consequences of losing the employee.

Anyway, enough ranting. I think that you are the first arts/humanities person I've ever communicated with who is very conservative (not to say that people like you don't exsist just that I've never met one).

[Mo]

Arts and Humanities AND conservative. I told you my values are not created by the people around me! I don't smoke either, and don't understand how that topic is relevant.
Flight attendants make the same money, male or female, as they should. In some cases where women complain about pay inequity, she has taken 5-10 years off to have children. She should not expect to make as much as her male or female counter parts who have remained on the job.

Yes, some communities are more expensive to live in. A low wage earner would have a tough time buying a home in my neighborhood. We like it that way. I'm not sure exactly what you are advocating? Should people who do not have the skills to make a good living be given homes in nice neighborhoods? They tried that in the city I live near. The places were destroyed in five years!

[dylan]

I only brought up my smoking example to illustrate the use of resources and the health effects caused in those who do not reap the "benefits." A child who lives in a smoking household has a greater chance of developing asthma. This is a cost of a smoking household but the child has no say in whether the parent smokes in the house and does nt have the option to move. The child may pay a cost for the action of the parent but does not gain the benefit of smoking (increased coolness). I was attempting to draw a correllation with environmental laws to attempt to keep your air clean. Something that those on the right and neoliberals have been fighting for a very long time now. Anyway, I'll leave it at that because I wasn't going to post today.

[nospace]

Dylan [shadow=red,left,300]GIVE a Livable wage?[/shadow]
What about putting your hands BACK IN YOUR POCKET! Ever hear of a unique concept called Earn IT ? I am tired of this welfare mentality! I am NOT a high end wage earner - BUT I do realize that it is MY OWN PERSONAL FAULT that I do not make much money (and I own a small business)! The problem is that I can NOT afford elevating anyones income! From experience - most people that work for low wages do so because their work is not worth the sweat off a mule deers tail! I think they need to totally FREEZE increases on minimum wage! People now-a-days - I swear! Give them $12.00 an hour and they want to sit in MY truck on MY cell phone while I do the work and get all nasty.

[bassplayer6th]

Well said nospace...

1. asthma is also caused by filthy living conditions, it cost nothing to clean your house (unless you think the government is supposed to do it for you).

2. I have a 90k job (it took me 20+ years to get there). 20+ years? I guess I have this terrible habit of SHOWING UP!

3. nospace, it sounds to me you have the guts to take a calculated risk, others take note...it takes hard work to make it pay off.

4. Dylan, nice ponytail.

[Terrance]

I'm tired for working with people with personality and mental disorders but I need the work to keep going in todays world or get run over. I researched and found out my current boss has ADHD and lacks social skills and only joy to argue until someones gives or wares out from frustration. He's the last man standing in an organization, not because he's the best, but because no one wanted to deal with him. I'm looking, but I live the 2nd highest unemployment rate in the country and don't want to move. I try to understand his sickness and give him a break, but when he yells and screams all day about nothing I forget his problem because he just made it mine. Have a butt-crunch! :

[Angmar]

"Congress shall make no law regarding the formulation or regulation of any contract amongst two or more persons, companies, industries, or affiliates." -The Constitution

There you are, your own precious document, informing you that under no circumstances can a law be made concerning contracts. Suddenly, minimum wage restrictions are unconstitutional. But I don't suppose you considered that.