PRISON

[JOEBIALEK]

"Most people who are in the prison system will get out, they will be somebody’s neighbor and they will have gained nothing from their time in prison except the knowledge that “it’s you or me” because that’s the way it is in our prisons. They have removed most of the educational programs from our prisons because the tax payers don’t want to throw away good money on worthless criminals. They have no counseling, nothing to help them change whatever it was that got them where they are in the first place. Is this what we really want?" "Misconceptions About Prison Life" By Jeanette Doil

The Eighth Amendment of The Bill of Rights for the Constitution of the United States: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." The very way prisons are operated today is a clear violation of this amendment.

Prison life today is the complete forfeiture of freedom for a certain period of time; sometimes the remaining days of one's life. Both violent and non-violent people are mixed together in the prison population which violates the Eighth Amendment because the potentiality for violence against non-violent offenders strongly exists. Furthermore, given the present conditions, those given life sentences without the possibility of parol would be better off if given the option of execution by the method of their choosing. But what about those with the chance of eventually leaving prison and returning to society?

One of the things strongly lacking in prison today is personal discipline; self imposed discipline. This is the discipline that makes you try harder and work more intensely then you ever thought you could. Sadly, prisoners lack both the incentive and ability to develop this themselves. Consequently, discipline needs to come from outside themselves. The best source of external discipline comes from United States Marine Corps boot-camp seargants. Prisoners need to be treated the same as new recruits when they step off the bus into the prison yard for the first time. It needs to be made clear that until they are released, the "system" will not allow them to continue in their present state of disorder. Once the prisoner accepts their new found source of discipline, they may "graduate" to learning a trade or completing an education. Various forms of counselling must also be provided in order to keep them focused on their path to rehabilitation. The right of the prisoners to peaceably assemble must be forfeited in order to prevent the formation of groups detrimental to the process. This would also prevent the smuggling of drugs into the prison as the corrupt corrections officer would no longer have a "market". The problem with prisons today is that they only serve to foster a continuation of the human condition that leads to incarceration. With all this discussion and funding of homeland security, it would seem logical to start with America's prisons as a means of improving the safety and security of every United States citizen.

[Chuck]

Interesting point of view. The law breakers are the victims of our (society's) failure to understand and comply with the eighth amendment.

The fact that a law breaker is in prison because he broke the law and caused pain, suffering and loss to a victim has no significance in this argument because prisons are, according to Joe, intended only for rehabilitation and taking otherwise nice folks with good motivation and getting them to blend back into society.

That mean 5 year old kid whose mother was kiled in a robbery, or that mean teenaged cheerleader who was raped are not even worth considering because, after all, they permitted these otherwise well meaning folks to do things contrary to their own morality.

I think I got it. Thanks for the "enlightenment."

[Walter]

Joe,

I'm really confused. If a guy winds up in prison, it's because he did a bad thing. He's not there because he is in need of training or someone to demonstrate he/she cares about him for him to change his ways.

For example, a bad guy severely injures a person who resists a robbery. He goes to prison.

If you had your way, he'd get training and be taught how to get along with his fellow man so he'd be, in your mind, an asset to society.

However this guy gets out after all that TLC and finds that life is tough and discipline is unattainable so he beats the crap out of someone, again, knowing full well how nicely he'll be treated in prison. It might even be a way for him to return to that TLC he isn't getting in real life.

In other words, you'd be happy to eliminate prison as a deterrence to crime. It is just for rehabilitation because deterrence has no significance any more.

Am I correct or did I miss something?

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm confused, did I read a different post to both walter and chuck? from what I understood, joe was saying is that prison needs discipline and order similar to that of the marine corps. This, combined with education and vocational training would enable an ex-con (thats con for convict not conservative ) to get a job when released and opereate in society productivley (is this not common sence?). I'm not sure if the marine corp that I have heard about is different to what you have heard, but there doesnt seem to be an emphasis on 'TLC' anywhere in it. So excuse me for asking in an such a contemptuous manner, but what the hell are you on about?

[RebelliousOne]

JOEBIALEK:

I don't know where you're getting your information about prisons, but it's wrong. I spent eight years working as an Officer, Correctional Counselor I and as a Sergeant, at one of the toughests prisons in the nation (the Correctional Training Facility -- aka: Soledad Prison -- in California), and everything you said is simply not true.

The California Department of Corrections offers its inmates both educational and vocational training -- and experience -- that can be transferred to the streets; it offers medical and psychiatric assistance; it allows conjugal visits; it permits "family Days" (in the appropriate facilities); it has outside entertainment (bands, etc.) perform at its prisons; it lets the inmates order food from civilian sources (in the appropriate facilities); and it promotes the use of Inmate Advisory Councils to assist other inmates with personal and prison-related problems -- yet, that state still has a recitivism rate of 85 percent.

Nor is life behind bars as cruel as you imagine. In California, inmates may take advantage of a variety of sports -- even going so far as to play against other prison teams. Arts, crafts, and other hobbies, are encouraged, and the inmates may sell what they make to either staff or the general public.

Still, none of this is enough to reduce the 85% recitivism rate. Why? Because some people believe the prison system is there to rehabilitate the offender, and that is not the case. Prisons are not psychiatriac hospitals, or an extension of kindergarden; indeed, prisons are for punishement, and no amout of "play time" will alter that fact.

Yet, according to the most liberal minds, if we educate the inmates, all their problems will vanish. Not true. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen inmates enter the system, get a high school diploma, get out, commit another crime, reenter the system, get an AA degree, get out, commit another crime, reenter the system, get a BA or BS degree, get out, commit another crime...et cetera.

With rare exception, the problem is not a lack of education, opportunity, good luck or even an abundance of bad luck -- it's greed: They want something and they are not willing to work for it; and why should they? If caught, they are returned to a system that opperates under the 8th Amendment rather than the 13th Amendment.

In Alabama several years ago, and Arizona more recently, the prison systems there re-installed the dreaded chain gang. Inmates were linked togeter with chains, and sent out to work on roads, clearning brush, picking up trash, hauling garbage, et cetera; and guess what? Crime in those two states plummeted. Indeed, the criminals didn't like the idea that prisons had stoped being country clubs and began being places of forced and hard work.

Based on the above, I must reject your argument in its entirity. My EXPERIENCE as a "prison guard" tells me that you've never worked in a prison, and know nothing of the psychology of inmates. I am sorry, but bottom line: You don't know what you're talking about.

RO

[proudmemberVRWC]

Guest-RebelliousOne said:

JOEBIALEK:

With rare exception, the problem is not a lack of education, opportunity, good luck or even an abundance of bad luck -- it's greed: They want something and they are not willing to work for it; and why should they? If caught, they are returned to a system that opperates under the 8th Amendment rather than the 13th Amendment.

In Alabama several years ago, and Arizona more recently, the prison systems there re-installed the dreaded chain gang. Inmates were linked togeter with chains, and sent out to work on roads, clearning brush, picking up trash, hauling garbage, et cetera; and guess what? Crime in those two states plummeted. Indeed, the criminals didn't like the idea that prisons had stoped being country clubs and began being places of forced and hard work.

When did prison become just about being locked up 24/7? Criminals have no fear of going to prison anymore. Hell, most of their friends are there. Gang members are repeatedly sent to facilities that are populated with their own gang members. Chino is the perfect example of that.
Sure, prison sucks. It's supposed to. It should suck even more for criminals! Get rid of the TV's VCR's Computers etc. People are always talking about the state of the highways and bridges in this country. You know why? No more road gangs. State's lose so much money by hiring all these contractors who charge triple time to fill a frickin pothole.
Hard work builds self esteem. Did anybody see any of the interviews with the convicts who were battling the CA wildfires? Every one I saw said it was the first time they felt good about themselves in a long time, and that they were glad to be able to help.

[Walter]

From the original post:

The Eighth Amendment of The Bill of Rights for the Constitution of the United States: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." The very way prisons are operated today is a clear violation of this amendment.

ItWillNeverWork says we read something he/she didn't. Not sure what he/she read but this is a part of what I read.

Joe clearly feels that prison, by itself, violates the eighth amendment. Makes no difference what the crime is or the attitude of the incarcerated is. To Joe prison is simply cruel and unusual punishment.

My earlier response was directed at Joe's starter post.

[ItWillNeverWork]

Your selective reading astounds me Walter. The quote you gave was out of context. Here is joe's explanation of that initial statement...

"Both violent and non-violent people are mixed together in the prison population which violates the Eighth Amendment because the potentiality for violence against non-violent offenders strongly exists."

After this joe goes on to state that...

"One of the things strongly lacking in prison today is personal discipline... The best source of external discipline comes from United States Marine Corps boot-camp seargants. Prisoners need to be treated the same as new recruits when they step off the bus into the prison yard for the first time. It needs to be made clear that until they are released, the "system" will not allow them to continue in their present state of disorder."

And then finally he goes on to talk about educational training schemes.


If you had actually read the post fully you would have seen that it was in fact a very well balanced and two sided argument that was calling for both increased discipline and societal preparation of inmates.

Your eagerness to pounce onto and critisize any comment that might be mistaken as 'liberal' is getting in the way of you perception of reality. I suggest you stop reading into posts in such a defensive manner, if you look for an attack on your values you will find one whether or not it is there.

[modified to add] - A great man once uttered the infinitley wise words...

"One useful technique in participating on a message board is to read a post and understand a position before posting a response."

[nkk]

Convicted criminals have more rights than the victims.
TV, exercise, vocational training, free lawyer if need be, libraries, computers, free medical, free room and board.

Do the crime, serve the time. If anything, prisons are not bad enough or the criminals would not keep going back in.

[Ogilvy]

Guest-nkk said:

Convicted criminals have more rights than the victims.
TV, exercise, vocational training, free lawyer if need be, libraries, computers, free medical, free room and board.

Do the crime, serve the time. If anything, prisons are not bad enough or the criminals would not keep going back in.

Computers is kind of ridiculous, and TV is only somewhat acceptable, but all of the other items that you mentioned are very justifiable. I hope you don't intent to argue that prisoners should have to pay for their medical treatments (how in the world would they do that) or be forced to pay for a lawyer (again, how would they do that?).

Libraries. Now that's essential. I would say that no matter how bad you make the prison system be, you should at the very least grant them the ability to read when they're locked up in a cell all day. I agree with stricter discipline, but by God, taking away books would be insane. Putting myself in the shoes of a criminal, I think most likely I would bash my brains out against a wall after about a year. Not being able to read would be about as bad to an avid reader as the electric chair. Or, no, being burned at the stake or quartered by horses. Spending a day in a medieval torture chamber would be only be a little worse than never being able to read.

Of course, this is ignoring that probably most inmates aren't avid readers. There probably aren't very many inmates reading War and Peace while in prison, though that would be a very suitable book to read while in prison. Perhaps they could read one page a day and be done by the time they get out!

[shell]

sorry but if you cant do the time dont do the crime you break the law you go to prison whats not to understand you know the price you pay before you do wrong so dont complain if you do wrong and get punished .
i think to much thought and sympathy goes to the perpertraitor forgive the spelling please and not enought to the victim.

[barral69]

I'm facing prison time for the death of the other driver in an accident I had last year, (see my post in major venting). Should I go to prison? And if I do, is the prison system really safe for someone like me? I'm terrified of prison, and its not the reasons I should be focused on that I really worry about. I should be more concerend with what a felony does to my reputation later and how it will effect my job getting abbility. But I'm more worried about if I go, even for a short time, and happen to survive it. Then the person who leaves that prison will not be me anymore. Because I don't think after dealing with this on a spiritual and emotional level that I have the strength to deal with prison too. I really feel like it'll be the straw that broke the camels back. A prsion sentence in my state right now would destroy me. I'm willing to take probation, loose my licesne pay a huge fine or anything but prison.

[scrap]

JOEBIALEK said:

"Most people who are in the prison system will get out, they will be somebody’s neighbor and they will have gained nothing from their time in prison except the knowledge that “it’s you or me” because that’s the way it is in our prisons. They have removed most of the educational programs from our prisons because the tax payers don’t want to throw away good money on worthless criminals. They have no counseling, nothing to help them change whatever it was that got them where they are in the first place. Is this what we really want?" "Misconceptions About Prison Life" By Jeanette Doil

The Eighth Amendment of The Bill of Rights for the Constitution of the United States: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." The very way prisons are operated today is a clear violation of this amendment.

Prison life today is the complete forfeiture of freedom for a certain period of time; sometimes the remaining days of one's life. Both violent and non-violent people are mixed together in the prison population which violates the Eighth Amendment because the potentiality for violence against non-violent offenders strongly exists. Furthermore, given the present conditions, those given life sentences without the possibility of parol would be better off if given the option of execution by the method of their choosing. But what about those with the chance of eventually leaving prison and returning to society?

One of the things strongly lacking in prison today is personal discipline; self imposed discipline. This is the discipline that makes you try harder and work more intensely then you ever thought you could. Sadly, prisoners lack both the incentive and ability to develop this themselves. Consequently, discipline needs to come from outside themselves. The best source of external discipline comes from United States Marine Corps boot-camp seargants. Prisoners need to be treated the same as new recruits when they step off the bus into the prison yard for the first time. It needs to be made clear that until they are released, the "system" will not allow them to continue in their present state of disorder. Once the prisoner accepts their new found source of discipline, they may "graduate" to learning a trade or completing an education. Various forms of counselling must also be provided in order to keep them focused on their path to rehabilitation. The right of the prisoners to peaceably assemble must be forfeited in order to prevent the formation of groups detrimental to the process. This would also prevent the smuggling of drugs into the prison as the corrupt corrections officer would no longer have a "market". The problem with prisons today is that they only serve to foster a continuation of the human condition that leads to incarceration. With all this discussion and funding of homeland security, it would seem logical to start with America's prisons as a means of improving the safety and security of every United States citizen.

I can't tell which side of the fence your really on but keep my Marine Corps out of it.

Yes they instill discipline but the recruits come to them for it

What your talking about is throwing gas on a fire.

[TNRighty]

WHAT AN IDIOT!!!

First of all, if you don't like the way life is in prison, DON'T GO TO PRISON. The worse prison life is the less chance someone may do something to land them there.

And of course there is lack of personal discipline in prison. That lack of personal discipline and responsibility is what got most people there in the first place.

Isn't it crazy that the people who are so worried about the quality of life for criminals are the same ones who see no problem killing an unborn child.

Liberalism is truly a mental disease.

[DoubleX]

TNRighty said:

First of all, if you don't like the way life is in prison, DON'T GO TO PRISON. The worse prison life is the less chance someone may do something to land them there.

And of course there is lack of personal discipline in prison. That lack of personal discipline and responsibility is what got most people there in the first place.

Isn't it crazy that the people who are so worried about the quality of life for criminals are the same ones who see no problem killing an unborn child.

Liberalism is truly a mental disease.

I pretty much agree with you TNRighty.

I believe prison should be runned like a boot camp, or at least something similar. I'm not sure if that's how some prisions work now, but prisons shouldn't be a 'country club' as some one put it before.

I also think that if the crime you committed isn't murder (or something really bad) and you are given a handful of years, you should be able to have the choice to join the army instead (for at least the number of years you were centenced.