beggars

[Josh]

I am so fucking tired of seeing these moronic beggars on the streets! They march around with their peeve signs that say: “Please help me, I’m homeless.” I feel like going up to them and saying: “Get a fucking job.” Why the fuck should I give some dirty scum bag my hard earned money? Job....


Click here to read more..

[ItWillNeverWork]

Oh how the overwhelming compassion of humanity brings a tear to the eye,

Oh how wonderfull the world is with such an eternally lasting philanthropic ray of light eminating from the loving souls of great men,

Oh how my heart celebrates every beat with joy just at the thought of how much love we all have for our fellow human beings.

[proudmemberVRWC]

Try living in New York City! At least we don't pay them like they do in San Francisco.

[Ogilvy]

[lordjulius7]

Itwillneverwork - you're a fellow Englishman, aren't you? Whereabouts do you live? I'll bet it's not London or Manchester, because if it was you'd know only too well that what the chap was saying is spot on. If you don't have to deal with the nuisance day after day, you don't have any right to attack those who do.

[Ogilvy]

I am not very fond of homeless people who are seeking an easy way out of work, but I cannot deny aid to those who are not poor because they are lazy. I would give money to these people.

Money does not mean much to me. Perhaps it was hard-earned, but in my opinion everybody is either overpaid or underpaid.

There were coal miners who nearly broke their backs every day working to extract minerals which society deemed useful. They were not paid very much. If you were to ask me, they should be the millionaires.

People in high-paying executive jobs do comparatively little to the common worker. It makes sense to me that they should receive much less money for their work. In my opinion it would be ideal if the people in those jobs would accept less pay and work just because they enjoy serving the people.

However, we all know that is a daydream. In fact, if the coal miners were rich, they might very well just refuse to work at all.

One might say that communism and equality for all would be the answer, but that is not necessarily true.

It is my belief that the High, Middle, and Low should be as equal as possible without actually making them completely equal. There should be very little difference between them. But there should be a difference, however small. Those who work harder do deserve more money for their efforts. But the amount of money should not be so large as it often is.

[lordjulius7]

Ogilvy, the trouble is that you're equating work with simple physical labour. On that level, of course a coal miner works harder than a CEO. But man is not a carthorse, and - just as there's more than one way to skin a cat there's more than one way to work. Two examples :
Responsibility : If one coal miner is inept, it doesn't make a huge difference to the overall success of the mine. But if a CEO is incapable, it could destroy the company. One reason CEO's are paid more is that their position is more valuable.
Scarcity :
Simple laws of supply and demand apply here. Anybody physically capable can, with a little training, do a coal miners job. Relatively few can do the CEO's job. Thus, high wages are neccessary to attract the best candidates from a small pool.

[Ogilvy]

I suppose you are right there.

[ItWillNeverWork]

"If you don't have to deal with the nuisance day after day, you don't have any right to attack those who do"

I live in Bimingham and see beggars every day so I have all the right in the world to attack. If I see a beggar I will judge on an individual basis whether or not they deserve my help. It is perfectly possible to tell if a person is a drug adict simply by the way they look and so I always avoid giving those individuals money.

But there are also the homless people who are eighther too old to work, are in some way mentally ill, or who have just fallen on bad times. To simply state that all beggars are lazy and good for nothing is completely ignorant to the many, many causes of homelesness. Next time you walk past an old man sitting in a subway, if you have 5 minutes get talking to him and you might find out somthing that will change you opinion of him. People are not stereotypes, that includes beggars.

[lordjulius7]

Fair enough, my guess as to your location was wrong and you have full locus standi. I apologise.
The rest was nonsense, though. There is a full welfare state system in this country. People are not forced to beg through soley economic circumstances. Those that are mentally ill - all too many, sadly - should be in a residential home where they can be cared for. The alcoholics and drug addicts should be in treatment. The gypsies should be back in Albania where they belong. The rest should be prosecuted under the vagrancy act. What doesn't help either them or us is for people like you to be making their choices economic through a mushy minded refusal to face up to the fact that they shouldn't be begging.

[Walter]

This is scary; really scary. The notion that everyone is motivated and works equally hard is nonsense.

Here in Southern California we have mechanics who are paid $100,000 a year striking our municipal bus system because they offered only a 3% pay increase. Public transit is, therefore, at a standstill.

Yet $35,000 a year firemen are working 24/7 to put out the terrible fires and not one squawk about pay.

The selfish, "me first" crowd, is always out there. The problem is who is the grand poobah who will decide the relative worth of each person's labours and, more importantly, how much does the poobah get paid for that effort?

Back to the point. The buskers in the London underground are frequently on the public dole and are receiving pensions as well. The begging is simply a pastime for many of them. Why is it my responsibility to provide them an income supplement?

[ItWillNeverWork]

Lordjulius:

"There is a full welfare state system in this country. People are not forced to beg through soley economic circumstances."

true, there is a welfare state and true people are not forced to beg through SOLEY economic circumstances but then I never said that was the case. First off, the welfare state is not perfect, people can often slip through the net for a variety of different reasons. I'll give you one example.

A few weeks ago I was in the city centre after having finished work, I was working late and my boss offered to drop me off at the bus stop before the last bus arrived. We stopped at the bus stop and I got out and asked one of the people at the bus stop if the bus had come yet. One man replied that no the bus was on its way.

So, I got out of my bosses car, waved good bye and started waiting for the bus. Whilst there it became apparent to me that one of the other people waiting at the bus stop was actually waiting for a taxi. (she was talking on a mobile and overhearing the conversation I was able gather this information). After she had finished her phone call I asked her whether she knew if the last bus had gone and she replied that it had, and then commented that the man I had asked was infact a bit mentally deficiant. At this point her taxi came and she went, leaving me with this man.

I started talking to him, or more acuratly he started talking to me. It became apparent that she was telling the truth. It turned out that he was a mental patient who lived in an open care home. He claimed to have lost his money after being beaten up and robbed. I didnt really believe him, especially since he also claimed to be 16 and a half years old (he was blatently in his thirties) but I knew from talking to him that he was infact mildly mentally ill (my mum works with special needs children so i know the signs). In the end I made the decision to pay a taxi to take him the the care home, if I hadn't he would have slept rough that night and probebly ended up begging the next day in order to get home.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that just because you see someone begging it does not mean that they are not in need.

- A welfare state is not perfect and cannot help in one off instances such as this.

- Mental illness is not a simple black/white issue, there are varying degrees of retardation alot of which will never be detected by social services or will only be detected in a person once they start living on the streets.

- Your point about alcoholics and drug addicts is one which i take on board, I never gove to junkies or drunks even though I may feel sorry for them.

- Your point about gypsies is pure racism and makes me feel alot happier about disagreeing with you now that i know your mindset.

- Finally, your point that 'they shouldnt be begging' and should be 'prosecuted under the vagrancy act' seems to spit in the face of the values of a free society. You don't HAVE to give them money, but why deny others the opportunity to give as they see fit?

[ItWillNeverWork]

Walter:

Come on now, we can do better that this incoherant waffle. Lets analyse your post shall we?

"This is scary; really scary. The notion that everyone is motivated and works equally hard is nonsense"

You start off badly here, at first I thought that maybe you had posted a reply to a message in another thread on this one accidentally. Considering that noone actually made that claim it seems absurd that you would make this point.

You then go on to recite some irrelevent local news story that is linked to you initial irrelevant point.

"Back to the point"

Hoorahh!!!!! an acknowledgement that he had wondered off course, now maybe we'll get him to adress the subject? To actually make a valid point?

"The buskers in the London underground are frequently on the public dole and are receiving pensions as well. The begging is simply a pastime for many of them. Why is it my responsibility to provide them an income supplement? "

Oh dear, seems I overestimated dear Walter, its back to non related waffle yet again.

1) Who mentioned buskers?

2) Make claims that you can substantiate instead of trotting out tired old vitriol.

3) Noone FORCES you to give, but why be so insulted that someone may ask?

[Walter]

Beggars like waffles too, don't they?

Rather than pick apart a reply with claims of irrelevance, perhaps you might try thinking through the characteristics of the post and developing the relevance rather than dismissing any issue with which you disagree.

Enjoyed your (I'm sure) totally relevant tale of your experience at the bus stop. I think I might have asked the woman taking a taxi who gave you the straight story if she would mind sharing the cab.

However, the fact that you found a poor soul at a bus stop who was begging as anecdotal evidence that all beggars are really not bad people (that's really relevant too, isn't it?) and you did nothing about it suggests that you aren't quite on the program either.

Yes, I've run into those types myself and, you'll find this hard to believe, I actually try to do something for them. No, it's not acceding to their request for money either. It's calling the police and advising them that there's an individual who needs mredical assistance, then waiting for a response unit to address the problem.

[ItWillNeverWork]

"Beggars like waffles too, don't they? " Everyone like waffles, American politicians may infuriate me but, damn you lot make good food and music.

"Rather than pick apart a reply with claims of irrelevance, perhaps you might try thinking through the characteristics of the post and developing the relevance rather than dismissing any issue with which you disagree."

So it's my job to develop the relevance is it? from the charactoristics of the post huh? hmm, maybe if you wrote more concisley with points instead of generalised 'charactor' you would get your point across quicker. Saying that the charactor of the post made your point for you seems to me to be an excuse for not making the point directly and clearly.

"However, the fact that you found a poor soul at a bus stop who was begging as anecdotal evidence that all beggars are really not bad people (that's really relevant too, isn't it?) and you did nothing about it suggests that you aren't quite on the program either."

1) I was not making the point that "all beggars are really not bad people", I was making the point that "not all beggars are really bad people". See the subtle difference?

2) Bearing in mind point 1, it does not matter that the evidence was annecdotal as I was not attempting to assertain a general charactoristic of beggers, but merley demonstrating that exceptions to the rule always exist and so an absolutist viewpoint in regards to these people cannot accuratly provide enough information to come to the conclusion that begging can never be explained or excused.

3) Also bearing in mind point 1, the relevance of my annecdote shows itself when it becomes apparent that I was attempting to dismantle the belief that begging can simply be explained away by saying these people are lazy. The relevence of the story comes from its contraposition to any perception derived by this stereotype.

"Yes, I've run into those types myself and, you'll find this hard to believe, I actually try to do something for them. No, it's not acceding to their request for money either. It's calling the police and advising them that there's an individual who needs mredical assistance, then waiting for a response unit to address the problem."

You are obviously a good, caring person with an open mind when it comes to assessing individual circumstances. So why espouse damaging stereotypes about people being "frequently on the public dole" and begging being a "pastime for many of them"?

P.S Sorry if I snapped at you in my earlier post. I do not mean to do this but I get emotionally carried away sometimes, I hope you can find it in you to forgive me