World Special Forces Poll

[Patriot]

This is a poll for anyone at Rantweb to vote for their preferred Special Forces group. Only a few international units have been chosen due to allotted space. There are many lesser known units, like US Army SOFD-Delta, which have been left out. Base your answer on whatever knowledge you possess of the listed unit, personal preference, and understanding of fighting capabilities/history. Try to be as impartial as possible.

Feel free to join in on a discussion, below this poll, about these various units and tell us why you voted. If your preferred unit is not listed, feel free to list your own unit in a post below and tell us why you feel it is the best.

[Ian]

I chose the Navy SEALs, but it is debatable between the SEALs and SAS. It is often said that the training discipline of the SAS may rival that of the SEALs, but I believe it has always been contended that the physical endurance of the SEALs rival all other SF groups.

[Patriot]

Thanks Ian. Would you be open to discussing the training details of the SAS?

It's difficult to fully penetrate some of the training techniques employed by certain special forces groups around the world. Certainly US Navy Seals are in the top 3 on the North American Continent and in the top 10 of the world.

However, there's an interesting book out there by a retired Marine, Colonel John Poole, who goes to great lengths exposing some of the flaws in American training which have developed over the past century. The book is titled, The Tiger's Way. I read this book a few months ago and was somewhat taken aback at his outright deference to Oriental forces and Communist training techniques.

One of the things to also focus on, besides training, is what the SF groups are responsible for, after the training phases are complete. For example, Seals are revered for their training which is thought to be unsurpassed. But, the Seals aren't regularly deployed after they gain the coveted title. Occassionally, they assist on the beach-head to support Marine infantry or set up sniper outposts.

On the other hand, Israel's Goloni Brigade, which doesn't stress the training phase, has been in a constant battle-ready state for over 60 years. Most of its soldiers see action within the first year of service, and every single veteran of the Brigade comes out with battle experience. The Brigade has never lost its original flag.

In contrast to all this, there are certain SF groups which aren't particularly renowned for their training or for regular participation in battles, but which have established themselves as pre-eminant forces due to a single battle, fought decades or centuries ago, that turned the entire tide of a war. A good example here is the French Foreign Legion at the Battle of Camerone in Mexico. There, only 14 Legion soldiers held off over three battalions of Mexican infantry for 12 hours, and culminated with a bayonet charge of the last remaining 3 Legionnaires: who charged and halted an advancing company of infantry after running out of ammo.

On the other hand, there are groups that are more renowned for their infiltration abilities, like Germany's group listed above.

[Ian]

It may take some time to gather info on SAS training, but I'll work on it.

"The Tiger's Way" sounds like a very interesting read; I'm always looking for pieces written by vets that take a critical view of the training standards and execution of that training in todays military.

The United States Military's standards have surely taken a dramatic slip over the past decades, this trend seemed to commence after the end of the Vietnam War, I have a few theories as to why this has occurred:

1.

The encroachment of hostile media on military operations during the Vietnam War coupled with the ever-feeble state of American politicians has played a vital role in the deterioration of military procedure. In the past, events like the Dachau Massacre, in which soldiers of the US 157th Division killed 560 surrendering German prison guards, were rarely spotlighted because the pro-Roosevelt press believed the enemy action to be so egregious that any action by Allied Forces could never measure in its inhumanity and if it did, a spotlighting of that behavior would hamper the efforts for the greater good.

Then suddenly with the Vietnam under Nixon and the rise of Hippiedom, the American media felt a sort of liberation. They no longer agreed with the American agenda and had a radical and vocal segment of the population that was willing to buy into their anti-American propaganda. In the post-Vietnam era, politicians were and are very careful to launch politically correct warfare. The population felt that the hostile imbedded reporters of Vietnam were somehow "whistle-blowers" on American foreign policy and the implementation of that policy, thus causing the government to shy away from restricting that coverage for fear that it would receive cries of censorship. This has had the effect of sending US soldiers into combat with one hand tied behind their back. The absolute unfettered access to the military the media has and the damage that it causes can be demonstrated with the persecution of the Marine that shot the Iraqi who was feigning death.

After rambling on, I'll consolidate my second and third points in an upcoming post, I have dinner to eat. Please elaborate on my point and/or offer theories of your own.

[Patriot]

Ian:

I definitely agree that the "rise of hippiedom", as you put it, has contributed to a lessening of the American warrior ethos, at least at the cultural level. However, there have always been certain segments of the population opposed to war. During the Revolution, it was the Loyalists. During the War of 1812, it was the Anti-Warhawks. During the Mexican War it was the Jeffersonian Democrats. During the Civil War it was the Northern Democrats. During the Indian Wars it was the Quakers. During the Spanish American War, and during the Boxer Rebellion, it was the Isolationists. During World War 1, it was the backers of Senator Lodge. During World War II, it was the American Socialists. During the Korean War, it was the Democrats. And of course, with Vietnam came the hippies.

The real problem, as I see it, isn't so much the media. Rather it's the conditions of our pre-trained recruits in today's ever-softening America. All branches do their best to stamp out weakness. But the easiness of our culture is so deeply ingrained in American soldiers that, even despite training, they cannot withstand the longest-term commitments. This is more true now then ever before.

The US soldiers in Iraq are tired. But unlike other soldiers of SF units elsewhere in the world, American soldiers have no problem voicing their complaints. A utility squad from South Carolina even refused to follow orders on a mission, about 8 months ago, because they felt it was "too dangerous"-- as if death wasn't supposed to be a factor in war.

There are other groups of people around the world who lack our caliber of training, but whose cultures have so accustomed them to hardship that they are able to sit out the longest seiges without raising a complaint.

The very fact that not a single Arab has come forward to divulge Bin Laden's location, for the multi-million dollar reward, also says alot about their character, whether you like it or not. I'd hate to think what would have happened, if the Arabs had put a 25 million dollar bounty on the head of General Tommy Franks (now retired). How many American soldiers would have rushed to abduct Franks for the prize money?

I think another big problem is the fact that we have become so reliant on technology and macro-warfare that we have really lost touch, to a great extent, with micro-deployment and the skills which accompany traditional fighting techniques. This was evidenced back in Afghanistan, during the early days of the Afghan War, when a US Navy Seal was left behind in a helo-mission and subsequently overwhelmed and slain by about 20 guerillas. The squad leader had failed to do a head-count prior to lift-off.

[TNRighty]

Let me preface my post by admitting I have little knowledge of tactical warfare. Most of my studies have been about the big picture and the politics of the justification of war and its necessity. My knowledge of war is from a historical perspective, not a tactical detailed understanding of war strategy.

That being said, I think the American guerilla tactics employed during the Revolution have to be mentioned among the greatest strategies of all time. On paper, so to speak, the British should have mopped the continent with American blood, but we proved that stealth and a superior strategy can defeat a superior army. The lesson we can learn from the American Revolution is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I know this is a little off topic, but take the Civil War for example. The South lost, but what Robert E. Lee was able to do was the equivalent of rounding up a bunch of high schoolers and playing the Pittsburgh Steelers only to lose by a field goal in overtime. Ulyses Grant was a great American and a great president, but he was an inferior general when compared to Lee. Had Lee commanded the Union Army, he would have stomped the Confederacy like an ant.

I guess my point is that the talent of our forces is only as good as the people calling the shots. Its all about leadership and strategy.

[Patriot]

TN Righty:

You're totally correct and I agree with everything you said. The lore of what American soldiers have accomplished in US history is truly unsurpassed, elsewhere in the world. But most of those "great feats" were done in centuries past when the pioneer spirit was still vibrant. Francis Marion (Swamp Fox) is who I believe you're referring to in regard to the guerilla war of the Revolution; he gave Banastre "Bloody" Tarleton (British commander of the "Green Dragoons") more than a few sound licks despite being vastly outnumbered.

And the Alamo of 1836 stands up to anything similarly claimed by the French Foreign Legion at Camerone.

My main concern is that we as Americans are losing touch (if it's not totally lost by now) with that old school spirit. Because today's soldier just doesn't cut the same figure as our great-great granddads: in body, spirit, or mentality.

But cheers to every American soldier in uniform (aside of the Air Force) as Memorial Day approaches.

[scrap]

Quote:
My main concern is that we as Americans are losing touch (if it's not totally lost by now) with that old school spirit. Because today's soldier just doesn't cut the same figure as our great-great granddads: in body, spirit, or mentality.

I beg to differ
Say what you want about our soldiers pissing and moaning about a few things but if you were stuck in the environment that they have been tossed into maybe you'd understand.

The conditions are atrocious the warfare unlike anything before in history and without a defined opponent.

They are learning on the run with new equipment never before used in military operations against an enemy that doesn't fight like any other.

I'd stand by their side and fight alongside them today and consider myself lucky if I wasn't over the hill and way past my prime.

There are going to be some whiners and there always have been in every war fought .

But the Body Spirit and Mentality of the American Soldier especially the Marines is alive and well and doing his job to the fullest.



Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave.......

Sorry guys sometimes I get carried away with my Patriotism.

[Ian]

patriot2 said:

But cheers to every American soldier in uniform (aside of the Air Force) as Memorial Day approaches.

Well I totally agree with your anti-Air Force sentiment .

You took the words out of my mouth when you referenced the impact technology has had on modern combat. However, I believe the technological advances made in the non-combat aspect have also taken a toll. For instance, Aircraft Carriers are now equipped with satellite phones, the internet and buffets that would rival most 5 star hotels (almost), a far cry from the un-air conditioned floating boilers my dad served on. While this may seem like a good thing, it plays to the ever-softening of the troops. If you're going into a fight, would you want to constantly see your mother worrying about whether or not you're going to get hurt?

Another factor is the ever-growing role of women in the military, but I'll leave that to you or whenever I get over this cold...

[Patriot]

Scrap:

But the Body Spirit and Mentality of the American Soldier especially the Marines is alive and well and doing his job to the fullest.

I wasn't referring to the Marines. They have always been, are, and will continue to be the tip of the American Spear. Happy Memorial Day.

[Patriot]

Ian:

While this may seem like a good thing, it plays to the ever-softening of the troops. If you're going into a fight, would you want to constantly see your mother worrying about whether or not you're going to get hurt?

I would be lying if I said that American troops, on average, are today as tough as they were in decades and centuries past. By tough I refer to the mind primarily. For instance, the men on the Bataan Peninsula in WWII endured, without complaining, the most horrific conditions any POW could possibly imagine for years on end. Most of them were not decorated for valor when they returned home, nor has congress re-imbursed them, monetarily. Many of their wives re-married while the soldiers were imprisoned. They returned to nothing.

On the other hand today, we have people like Jessica Lynch making a real fool of this country's martial prowess. We have people whining about costs, and lack of equipment. Well I have news for you liberals: back on Bataan, US troops knew they were lucky to walk away with a stick of bamboo. Say nothing of "armor" on the humvees.

There are many brave soldiers in all branches but, for the most part, there is a fierce personal battle waged between the warrior ethos and the softness of American society. These two are polar opposites, and play tug of war. Depending on the caliber of the individual soldier, one of the poles tends to conquer the other.

However, many NCOs in all branches-- Marines included-- are not re-enlisting. Our military is not currently meeting recruitment goals. Why? Because, on the whole, our soft society no longer believes in the legitimacy of any war.

Liberals disguise their disgust for war (and personal cowardice) under the banner of a "lack of integrity" in Republican leadership. But the fact is, no matter who is in charge, and no matter what the cause is, they'd never shoulder an M-16.

[Ian]

Well put. However, let me add as to the military's difficulty in recruitment.

I don't believe that the problem lies solely or even chiefly with the softening of the American populous, but with the softening of American policy and the government officials that put forth that policy. My grandfather served in Korea and both my father and grandfather served in Vietnam and they have expressed to me many times their hopes that I won't enlist and fight for this Neo-Con dream War on Terror. How many times have we seen a marine playing crossing guard in Baghdad only to be mutilated in a car bomb attack? As the purpose of American fighting forces shifts in order to fulfill this apparition of the pro-Israel right, there will undoubtedly be a decline in enlistment.

I don't believe that the problem is that American men don't want to fight, but rather that American men don't want to fight blind.

[Patriot]

Gentlemen, as much as it pains me-- and believe me, it's a lot of pain-- to say this, I'm going to have to retract my slur against the Air Force this year.

And you know why? Because (you're never going to believe this)... Air Force Captain Christopher Juarez from Las Vegas took first place in the 2005 Marine Corps Marathon. Think about that for a moment. First of all the guy's piddly Air Force shit. Second of all he's from Las Vegas, home of the biggest gambling, liquor, and strip-club business in the USA. And he kicked the asses of US Marines from Quantico.

This is truly, and I mean truly, a sad state of affairs. I guess, though, we can say all our truly "great" Marines are at the front lines (let's hope so!) because that's the only excuse I can think of to palliate this utterly despicable humiliation.

[Ian]

So what? Big whoop! A bitch-ass Air Force queen beat some Marines. It took that worthless pile of flying shit to accomplish what every sailor can do in his sleep!

Let's remember, these guys were marines:

[scrap]

I am utterly devastated by that news.

I should have gone down and taken some of my Comrads places and helped out.

Of course if that had happened I would still be running or at least crawling to the finish line at this moment.

Did anyone hear the gossip that this guy was a ringer or did I just start it.

We have to give the Man his due , the &%$)(*&^%E$#$^&*(()(*&^^%%$#@!$_)(*&^%$#$%^&.

I feel much better now.