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Post by starm on Oct 6, 2004 23:32:43 GMT -5
I guess I can see one rational for taxing a little bit everywhere instead of all income tax. It is easyer to fraud a system that has a single point of failure. If someone doesn't pas income tax he at least pays sales tax and taxes trough the profits of companies he buys from.
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Post by MO on Oct 7, 2004 11:26:51 GMT -5
Why do you want people to pay more taxes?
The government has proven at every turn that is doesn't do well with money. It screws up every industry it rears its ugly head into, such as healthcare and education.
All the class envy is nauseating. What is "too rich?" I think everyone should pay a flat % rate tax. People shouldn't be punished for being successful. That money that is stolen from the "too rich" guy in the form of confiscatory taxes is money he could use to expand his business and hire more employees. In keeping with the constitution, fed taxes should be far less and state and local taxes should probably be higher. The feds have no business collecting for anything that isn't directly or indirectly involved with national security.
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Post by starm on Oct 7, 2004 13:46:25 GMT -5
Why do you want people to pay more taxes? The government has proven at every turn that is doesn't do well with money. It screws up every industry it rears its ugly head into, such as healthcare and education. Simply not true. Okay maybe the government is less efficient with its money. It wastes more. But private companies have a lot of drawbacks too. The private sector is very short sighted. It only cares for short term profit. It doesn't see beyond a decade. Here's a good metaphore: The private sector is like the government on cocaine. Yes its better now, but it ten years it will have cripled itself. Also the private sector has no ethics. If you let it it will try all it can to put itself in quasi monopoly and destroy competition. The private sector has a lot more incentive to be crooked. What do you think would happen if we deregulated the private sector. They would cut all the trees, polute all the water. They would exploit people as much as they could so that people would be able to do anything unless they could pay immediately. In five years the economy would be booming life would become easy with plenty of ressources. In ten years when all the ressources run out and the effect of exploiting people kicks in, the economy is going to do a big crash. |
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Post by starm on Oct 7, 2004 13:53:16 GMT -5
Why do you want people to pay more taxes? All the class envy is nauseating. What is "too rich?" I think everyone should pay a flat % rate tax. People shouldn't be punished for being successful. That money that is stolen from the "too rich" guy in the form of confiscatory taxes is money he could use to expand his business and hire more employees. They are not punished for being successful they just paying back to the system that gave them the possibility to be succesfull. They profited the most from the system they should pay to keep the system working and let future generations become rich too. Otherwise what do you get? Money concentrates in the people that are already rich. It is easyer to make money when you have money. It concentrates so much that the corruption starts to kick in like it does in every country where there is too much seperation between rich and poor. The rich start exploiting the poor more and more. They start to have more power than the government. Look at all the regions that have a lot of oil or diamonds. In saudi arabia the oil barons control the government and everyone else, and theres nothing anyone can do. |
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Post by MO on Oct 7, 2004 14:26:55 GMT -5
You just stated major fallacies, as well as denigrated everything this great nation stands for.
Your points are invalid.
Business has competition. It's in their best interest to win trust. A store that refuses to give the customers their change is not going to be in business very long. They have a financial incentive to be the best and the brightest and the most competitive. What reason does the IRS have to be decent?
We have more trees in this country than we did years ago. That is in spite to the government and due to loggers who make their living from the industry. It's not in their best interest to be out of work in a decade. Recent government policy on the issue (Clinton/ Gore) has resulted in nothing but irresponsible forest management policies that have caused wild fires that destroy homes and property and kill people and thousands of acres. People who are in the industry know best what is good for an industry.
The people is the government! Why do you assume these same people that can't be trusted as private citizens suddenly become all knowing and altruistic when they are elected or appointed to a government pay check?
All have the opportunity to be successful. More money going to government doesn't make anyone successful except government workers who get fat, dumb and happy off the fruits of other people's labor. How many factory workers could stay in a job that year if that "too rich" guy was able to buy a large yacht? That "too rich" guy is not stashing his money under a mattress, as has already been pointed out to you. It's not just sitting in an account. If it is in investments, it is keeping investment bankers in business and providing the capital needed for the financial intuitions to give a first time home loan to the guy that's making 30 k a year. As long as it's in the system, it's helping the economy. Jealousy, greed and want is no excuse to steal things from people that are rightfully theirs.
Your redistribution of wealth scheme may sound sweet and altruistic but it is failing all over the globe. Check out the unemployment figures for most of Europe. We have the most productive economy in the world and we will continue to as long as we don't slip any more into socialism. History has proved that it doesn't work.
LOL ! LOL !
Don't dare use Saudia Arabia or the middle east to denigrate capitalism and the free market. That is funny beyond belief. The government owns the oil, and they are filthy rich. There is nothing free market about the middle east.
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Post by starm on Oct 7, 2004 15:57:49 GMT -5
In the business world long term is considered 5 years. They dont look beyond that.
When did I say they couldn't be trusted as private citizens?
Yes it does. You wouldn't be as succesfull as you are if it wasn't for the government infrastructure: Roads, water, electricity, police, law system, and a lot more.
How many could have gotten better jobs if they had better services like education. Education that promotes inovation and makes the country productive.
OK but you also need the educated people that will take loans and start business with them. Its useless to have all that money available when no one will use it to inovate and create more wealth. Services makes a population that is more apt at doing so.
Thats just plain crap. I'm looking at the practical, economical, logical, side of things. If your going to make this a moral issue theres notting I can say besides that I'm in no way jealous.
Not true. Canada provides free healthcare to everyone and they manage to live well even if they have to pay a lot more just because of their climate. Their government has been doing a surplus every year lately. US deficit is just growing. If we had a similar system than in Canada, with the advantage of our climate being a lot better, everyone would be living with a VERY HIGH standard. The current systems cripples that potential. Also, I'm not trying to be sweet and altruistic i'm trying to create the best economy as possible by investing in people.
Maybe the reason the government owns all the oil is that the people that have the oil became the government. If we would let money concentrate in the rich they would probably eventually take over the government and yes we would lose our democraty.
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Post by MO on Oct 7, 2004 16:55:12 GMT -5
Just noticed your IP. What the hell do you care? You're in Canada! Maybe we wouldn't be growing a deficit if we weren't subsidizing and protecting your dumb asses.
If your country was so great you wouldn't need to be a missionary on American web sites.
Deception pisses me off!
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Post by starm on Oct 7, 2004 17:06:52 GMT -5
Hey I countered all of your arguments. I guess I win the debate. As a citizen of the rest of the world I say: Bush is a scarry moron who cannot handle safely the power he has. If he stays in power terrorism is going to go sky high everywhere in the world (incuding the USA) Gotta convince people to vote against him! The USA are the greatest asset to the world when not run by the current maniac.  |
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Post by MO on Oct 7, 2004 17:11:53 GMT -5
You didn't win anything. You just proved that you are less than honest. News flash- We don't give a crap what you think of our president. The fact that you care proves you are just parasites. You don't get a vote. Go listen to your government controlled media and drink the kool- aid like a good little sheep person.  obviously! |
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Post by starm on Oct 7, 2004 17:21:55 GMT -5
Dont understand that reasoning
I might add we feel a lot more free living here than in the perpetual state of fear your government keeps you in in order to control you.
Canadians have probably the most freedom anyone can get right now.
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Post by TNRighty on Oct 8, 2004 17:21:00 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't resonded recently, but I'll try to address some of the posts I missed. Starm made a comment about someone being "too rich". What does that mean? Are you saying we should decide whether or not someone has too much money? Should we set a limit on how much money is enough and thus confiscate every penny above the "enough" threshold and give it to the people who don't have "enough"? Starm, you're not going to see my point here because you're operating under a different paradigm. America doesn't operate the way Canada does, thank goodness. But in a free economy you have the right to make as much or as little money as you want, and nobody else has a right to the fruits of your labor even if they're living in a box while you have money to burn. Even in America we have politicians who think otherwise, but their stance does not represent the principles on which this country was founded.
You also referred to yourself as a "citizen of the rest of the world." That's a dangerous mindset. Do you believe that your identity as a Canadian is second to your citizenship of the rest of the world...a citizenry that includes Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. That says to me you believe that all humanity is either a citizen of the USA or the "Rest of the World." Well, the USA has done more for Canada than the "Rest of the World" ever has.
"Its easy to make money when you have money". How do you know? If you've got a pile of money, its a whole lot easier to lose it than it is to make more of it. Ask Donald Trump or Bill Gates if their jobs are easy. By the way, these men had no money before they started making money, and neither owe me a dime. If I want a portion of the money Bill Gates makes, I can go design the next great software programs. Starm, take a look at the products you use on a daily basis. Chances are your computer operates on software invented by Bill Gates. The people who own the companies that manufactured your refrigerator, washer, dryer, car, air conditioner, and stove are RICH. Instead of demonizing them for their wealth you should appreciate the contributions they've made to your lifestyle. If you don't like the fact that they're rich, stop buying their products. Walk to work, wash your clothes in a creek and dry them on a clothesline, keep your food in a cooler, cook your food over a fire in your backyard, sweat your ass off in the summer. See how you like that.
Also, if you hate rich people, ask a poor person to give you a job and see where that gets you.
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Post by starm on Oct 8, 2004 17:55:17 GMT -5
TNRighty , first I have to say that was a good insightfull reply. You are great to argue with. I still can't say I agree with all your points.
First by saying too rich I didn't mean theres a threshold or anything. I just meant it as the level at witch not just hard work, skills, made you rich but also luck. And, I did mean you shouldn't be alowed to get "too rich" just that you should be taxed more if you do get there.
The "citizen of the rest of the world." comment was sortof a parody of USA mentality (either with us against us) where the USA has some kind of special status and then theres the rest of the world. I don't know if that's really the mentality over there or just what your government seems to project. The comment wasn't really serious more of a bad joke.
""Its easy to make money when you have money". How do you know?"
Well I have been in situations where if I had $10 000 to invest I could have quadrupled it easy. (It was risky so I wasn't ready to make a loan but still...)
Buying stocks without large capital you have too much overhead so that it is not worth it. (I'm still a student later I hope to be able to). And its like that for all risquy investments when you don't have surplus capital you either have large transaction overhead or you risk loosing your house. Same thing with education. Education cost a lot. You do need some money to get an education and make money later. You also need a good environment that lets you study well. A good place to live, etc.
Mr. Trump doesn't seem to be working too hard isn't he on a reality show or something? You have to admit that Bill Gate was lucky. If he hadn't invented windows or DOS someone else would have. It was all about timing. In fact there were other similar operating systems at the time. Bill just got the right marketing and combination of open standards an timing. Now I respect Mr. Gate since he gave back much of its profits to charity. He realized that he didn't deserve all that money to himself.
Also the last thing I want to do is "demonize" the rich as you say. I understand the value of inovation and of financial incentive to do so. My futur jobs will deoend on it. (I'm an electrical engineer, mastering in computer science) But I think there would be more Bill Gates if society gave more opportunities to more people and that would greatly improve the economy and efficiency... GDP or whatever. And I think a lot of the rich are respectfull about paying taxes and they know it is taxed payed by others in the pass that let them get where they are today. I think taxing the rich more is a question of oconomical pragmatism. Flat tax for everyone is just an idealism it doesn't work practically.
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Post by TNRighty on Oct 9, 2004 11:37:57 GMT -5
If you want to invest $10,000 nobody is stopping you. Save your money and invest it.
"Someone else would have invented microsoft software". Well, somebody else didn't. Bill Gates did, but if it were someone else who had invented it you'd
be criticizing them. It doesn't change the argument.
As for Trump's "good timing", you're damn right it was good timing. That's all part of being a smart businessman--making the right decisions at the right time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you make your own luck.
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Post by MO on Oct 9, 2004 12:34:16 GMT -5
::)I wouldn't even bother. It's not a demorat or a Republican. It's just peanut the emotionally retarded liar. An emoticon can send him over the edge.  |
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Post by starm on Oct 9, 2004 13:06:08 GMT -5
Don't worry I will.
First, I'm not critisizing them in any way. I think it is great what they have achieved. My comment showed that as a person he didn't have that much to do with the money he made. It was mostly luck. I sure people as brilliant and skilled as him started companies shortly after him but they never made as much money just because of timing. Technology was at a certain point and he was just riding the tech boom, he embarked just in time. Do you realise that most of the technology B.Gates needed to make his software work was developped in university research labs? He just put the last necessary pieces on top and he made all the money. Why? because software doesn't cost a dime to manufacture. People bought has much computers than OSs but the computer manufacturer (which in my opinion were probably much more inovative. The hardware is much more complicated to do. ) They made a lot less profit since it cost them a lot to manufacture. Once Gates had a big part of the market people bought his product not because it was good but just because it was compatible with the rest of people who had a computer. It could have been any bright individual. Bill Gates just happened to start a business at the right time.
you make your own luck to a certain point, but a lot of time its the context you are in that decides how much profit you end up with. This context is influenced by the governent which is trying to make the best environment possible for you to succeed (Education etc...), and so are partly responsible for your succes.
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obviously!