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Post by MO on May 19, 2004 17:03:27 GMT -5
The President made his decision to go to war based on his leadership of a nation with a secular government. However, his actions do not contradict his faith.
Since Jesus knew about Judas Maccabeus, who fought five Syrian armies, where is there any evidence that Jesus ever condemned Judas Maccabeus?
The apostle Paul said, "He who wields the sword wields it not in vain, for he is a minister of God to bring justice or judgment against the ungodly, against the kidnapper, against the murderer."
He was certainly speaking of the need of a police force and military.
"Turn the other cheek" is to be interpreted in the individual sense. It was not meant to speak to the collective. There comes a point where rightous people must act on behalf of the helpless. Otherwise, we could not punish wrongdoing. Hunting evil and destroying it where it lives is also a Biblical theme.
Luke 22
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
In this passage, Jesus is telling his diciples to use self-defense when neccessary. It does not contadict Matthew 5:39. Jesus said that we should not seek revenge, he did not say that we shouldn't defend ourselves or others.
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Post by JesterCerberus on May 20, 2004 10:13:05 GMT -5
Okay MO so much to respond to. Here I go.
Yes there are things in the Bible that suggest that violence is okay at times but the underlining philosphy is of tolerance and peace. Your quotes speek of self deffense, they do not speak of hunting down evil everywhere it was and destroying it. The parabl about the woman being stoned to death speeks against punishing wrongdoing but instead forgiving people for what they have done.
Secondly the Patriot Act is sepearte from the religion talk but I do have problems with it. For one non citizens can be arrested and detained for undetermined amounts of time without being charged, given access to a lawyer and there famillies dont have to be notified. You probably don't care about non citizens but my girlfreind happens not to be a citizen and what the governemnt can do scares me. Basically all the rights to privacy have been striped away from even citizens. An EMT in Florida was arrested and held for two weeks his familly ahving no idea what happend to him because he ahd medical scissors with him. But whatever I really don't think that we will ever be on the same page about the Patriot Act, I understand that my fears about our government overshadowing my fears of terroist is an irregularity in me.
If you define the terroist attacks of September 11th an act of war than do you consider are invasion of Iraq an act of terroism. It seems strange that you don't differentiate between the two. I think wheter its terroism or war really depends on who is receiving it.
Anyway back to religion, I think that Jesus would have much perferd we try to help those in need than punish those who are evil. There are so manny more in need who could be far more efficenlty helped.
I am still not convinced that Saddam Hussein is connected to September 11th. I read the article you posted before and although there seems to have been some meetings wihth officials in Iraq and the suicide bombers this is a very loose connection and even further this connection was not know prior to our invasion, the white house admitted that they had accidently misled people into thinking that there was a connection clear connection between Saddam and 9/11. And that there was no clear connection.
Anyways I sort of lost what the hell you were talking about in your first rant. About me throwing stones and countrymen and then going into feminism. I don't know why you brought feminism into this but I agree. We should care about the suffering people in the world instead of going on vedettas that will never succeed, kill many innoncent people and increase the amount of violence back.
And my point was that I dont think that Bush should do everything out of what he thinks his religion states, I only stated that I dont hink his actions match the underlying philosophy of Christianity. I'm glad you brought in thoser biblic quotes because I find them interesting but I dont hink that the Iraq falls under those umbrellas. Also the beauty of parablls is that they can be applied to almost any context, so I dont think that turing the other cheek can only apply to one person.
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Post by MO on May 20, 2004 10:46:59 GMT -5
So you see no difference in 9-11, a surprise terrorist attack aimed at killing as many civilian men, women and children and a declaration of war, passed by congress and fought against an army? That is moral relativism and moral depravity as its finest.
I mentioned women in the Islamic world because American liberals only seek to vilify and destroy their own country from within while making excuses for others.
You seem to have a very distorted interpretation of the Bible. I'm not so sure you've read the book. I think you're working on little knowledge of what it actually says. In order to interpret that passage as you seem to be doing, we would have to do away with the entire military and judicial system right on down to the traffic cop on the beat. I personally believe we were told not to judge people's hearts. There is no indication that we are not to judge people's behavior and there is plenty of scripture that explains how to do just that.
I take that story as just more Biblical evidence of His election. She was chosen.
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Post by JesterCerberus on May 20, 2004 19:14:35 GMT -5
"So you see no difference in 9-11, a surprise terrorist attack aimed at killing as many civilian men, women and children and a declaration of war, passed by congress and fought against an army? That is moral relativism and moral depravity as its finest. "
Okay I didn't say that I saw no differnce, I just thought it was funny that you called thsoe attacks an act of war. Obviously becasue I'm an American and I am on the receiving end of it I saw those as acts of terrosim. But I'm sure when we bomb countries and innoncent people die, there neighbors who may have survived don't see the bombs as an act of war but as terroism.
"I mentioned women in the Islamic world because American liberals only seek to vilify and destroy their own country from within while making excuses for others. "
I still don't know why you brought this up in this thread. How have I sought only to vilify my own country from within while making excuses for others? And what do Islamic woman have to do with it. All I'm talking about is a disconnect from christiany and concervatism which you agree the connection between the two is overplayed in the media. I don't know why you feel like you always need to disagree with what other people say if they don't share your views. Obviously I don't ussually agree with you but I am impressed by your wealth of knowledge and maybe I can learn from you. Maybe your right, maybe the war in Iraq would be fine with Jesus if he were still alive. But I don't belive that it is helping us move towards a wolrd where the lion can lay down with the lamb.
About my knowledge of the bible, I have not read it in a traditional sense from cover to cover, but I have gone to church most Sundays of my life and have come to understand my faith from the readings gospels and homillys that I have heard. This could easily make me biased towards a certain way of thinking. And if I need a broader picture I am gald that you have the knowledge to provide it.
This being said I still don't belive the war in Iraq is right according to the teachings of the Bible. I read that Sainte Augistine thing though you never explained it, you peeked my intrest and I looked it up. Even if you accept that as truth I dont think the Iraq war makes it on several of the points. Tell me if you think it does make it on all of them. then we can have something concrete to discuss.
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Post by JesterCerberus on May 20, 2004 19:18:28 GMT -5
After rereading it some things I would like to change:
their neighbors not there neighbors
I don't know why you feel like you always need to disagree with what other people say if they don't share your views.
I meant
I don't know why you feel like you always need to mock with what other people say if they don't share your views.
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Post by MO on May 20, 2004 19:52:46 GMT -5
You mean, you don't believe that He is? Peace is not the absence of war. It is the absence of evil. You may not think the war meets the "just war"standard, but many church leaders would beg to differ including Dr. Kennedy; Dr. Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention; Dr. Charles Colson, chairman of Prison Fellowship Ministries; Dr. Bill Bright, founder and chairman of Campus Crusade for Christ International; and Dr. Carl D. Herbster, president of the American Association of Christian Schools. www.erlcmedia.com/pr_2002/LandslettertoBush.htm |
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Post by MO on May 21, 2004 2:51:49 GMT -5
I must say, you gained some respect from me with that statement.  |
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Post by rush22 on May 21, 2004 5:09:24 GMT -5
MO, many conservatives dislike the powers of the PATRIOT act too. This is from Bill O'Reilly, whom a lot of liberals absolutely hate. The PATRIOT act isn't a partisan split.
Bill O'Reilly, Host, Fox News: The O'Reilly Factor, ("Does the Domestic Security Enhancement Act Violate Rights?" The O'Reilly Factor, 2/13/2003)
"First of all, if passed, they can come up to you and me and demand a DNA sample for no reason at all other than we're suspected terrorists… They want to go up to you and me, no reason, all right, and say, hey, give me that DNA sample. I don't want that."
"But this, if passed, sends a chilling signal that I can be, and you can be pulled over, and anybody watching could be pulled over. And a cop could take you right out of the car and say, ‘Hey, give me your fingerprints right now. For no reason at all other than we suspect that you're a terrorist.’ Not going to fly with me."
"Now, the wiretap. This is another thing. Now -- and believe me, I'm kind of with you in the sense that I want the government to have the tools to protect us. I mean, I'm not the ACLU poster boy, as you know, OK? But now they want to have a window where they don't have to explain to anybody why they're wiretapping anybody else."
"The president should have [emergency powers], as Abraham Lincoln had during the Civil War, in times of emergency stress or emergency to make these things happen. Just to give it to the attorney general, no. I mean, look, Janet Reno was the attorney general, John Mitchell was
the attorney general. I don't want these people to have this power. And this guy Ashcroft is throwing sheets over statues. Come on."
"I trust an elected official like the president, not an appointee."
[On loss of citizenship due to affiliation with a terrorist organization]
Yes, and that's fine with me. And I would say foreign terrorist groups and domestic that are defined in writing, I would say OK. But not the way it is now. So they've got a lot of work to do on this. Because I don't want people pulling a hair out of my head just because they don't like me because I'd be bald in two seconds."
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Post by MO on May 21, 2004 11:01:27 GMT -5
No issue is completely party lines.
Bill O'Reilley is an independent. He is liberal on many issues. He doesn't just make liberals angry. He's an equal opportunity offender.
Who cares, anyway? Did you think the opinion of one talk show host was going to change my mind?
The PA is not permanent. Liberty won't do you a whole lot of good without life.
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Post by kerryedwards on Jul 13, 2004 11:40:45 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what the hell you're talking about. First of all, no one has successfully pointed out to me how the PA has taken any rights from any innocent Americans. Most of its detractors have never read it. They are just parroting back some crap they read about it taking away their liberties. Liberals just spout out what they've heard. War was declared on us and that is the fact, whether we fight back or not. Carp about liberties you've lost, but won't describe. That is your main issue of your post? How is a good policy passed by a not so fiscally responsible president reflect on an entire religion, anyway? I think you need to examine your own eye before you go throwing stones at millions of people. You want to throw some crap around about religion or do you only feel comfortable when you're trashing your own country men and women? What a girly man. This chic is happy to know better men. I do find it interesting that "feminists" in this country only seem to have one interest; killing babies at home and bashing their own country. They don't seem to give a rat's ass about women in the world, like the slave women in the Sudan. Liberals are totally inconsistent and hypocritical. They have nothing to say of this. They only make excuses. I guess to the godless left, multiculturalism trumps feminism. lol debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html#conclude{quote} TEXTIts funny you say that. Who is running the "slave labor" in the world? The last I heard the "Wal-marts" of the world are the biggest "slave" owners. Women in the East work 18 hour days 7 days a week from the age of 10 until they are used up. They sew all day and sleep under the machines they work at all day. All so we can save a few $ on goods. Unfourtunately, most of the savings from this slave labor is really not passed on to the consumer just as it is not passed on to the worker. Its horded by the owners. Who owns/runs these "slave" camps? Its the conservative multinational billionaires. The kind of guys GW/Cheney is in business with. The same guys that preach "christian" values. Conservatives talk of being "christian" until it comes time to practice it. The religion of most conservatives is capitolism. If something doesn't affect the bottom line (abortion/gay marriage) all of a sudden they are preaching christian values. Its interesting how convienient religion can be. isn't it? |
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Post by MO on Jul 13, 2004 14:17:27 GMT -5
I can hardly make sense of this unintelligible post. Learn to work the features, troll.  Only a blame America first lefty would blame the POTUS and American corporations for the working conditions in other countries. We have no control over that. Capitalism is working quite well, and has made people live better than anywhere else in the world. |
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Post by kerryedwards on Jul 13, 2004 15:17:02 GMT -5
I don't know why you feel like you always need to mock with what other people say if they don't share your views.
Yeah, Moo has all the answers..just ask her. She is a very angry person. I feel sorry for Her. I can tell she has intelligence. Its too bad she is so rough around the edges and can't express herself in a constructive manner without insulting people. Its my experience that those who mock others are reflecting an inner anger toward themselves.
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Post by MO on Jul 13, 2004 19:56:44 GMT -5
It's my experience that you are a troll that has already been banned under a different user name. |
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Post by scummybear on Jul 15, 2004 5:48:17 GMT -5
Hey Lurch/Breck,
Yeah, you might want to examine this statement since you just contradicted yourself. You also might want to broaden your "experience" beyond watching Dr. Phil.
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Post by bibster on Jul 30, 2004 11:15:41 GMT -5
I'm a Jew and a conservative. So you see not all conservatives are Christian. There have been a huge increasee in the # of Jews who are becoming conservative and realizing that the party that really is tolerant to everyone are the conservatives. I grew up in ultra socialist Canada and was a socialist until I was 18. When I decided to use my brain for free thought and learning (free from socialist propoganda taught in schools) I became a conservative. For more conservative opinions/editorials go to www.itstherightway.com. My friend runs the site. |
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