Patriot's Rant Thread

[Patriot]

In the Draw a Cartoon thread, Midcan, our resident idiot, wrote:

^{There are many Christians today who are every bit as radical or violent as the most violent Islamic extremists. Eric Rudolph or the shooters at abortion clinics, church arsonists, racist and homophobes, for example. I admit we have less violence but that is not to say the people are very different. Rest assured we are pretty much like others.}

I'm taking this quote out of that thread, and placing it here, because it forms the basis for a truly necessary rant. Namely, my frustration with people who think in general and objective terms, versus those of us who think in specific and subjective terms.

Why can't Islam be rightfully arraigned for its human rights violations, without a finger also being pointed at unrelated incidents associated with Christianity? Why do some people feel the incessant need to keep the scorecards even, despite the fact that Islam is worlds ahead of Christianity in violence and bloodshed? Eric Rudolph was just one man. Osama Bin Laden, Al Quaeda, and indeed, the vast majority of Shiite Muslims are MILLIONS in number who condone illegal acts of force to accomplish their assinine objectives.

Rudolph, at worst, was making a social statement by taking the lives of abortion doctors who themselves had been taking the lives of the unborn. This shows he was reacting to a breach of human rights by the medical establishment. His actions were perhaps wrong, but they were nothing akin to the suicide bombings and beheadings we witness on a daily basis by the Muslim populations in Iraq and Israel/Palestine-- killings which are solely motivated by greed over land.

The fact is, Islam is a violent, backward religion, whereas Christianity is not. That's not a statement of opinion, it is a statement of fact. All you have to do is look at the origins of the Red Cross. That organization provides relief for people all around the world, and its founders were Christians. Show me a single organization from the Muslim world which even comes close to matching the Red Cross. When have Islamics ever sent forth a society to help unrelated people abroad? When have Islamic countries ever contributed to the World Food Bank?

In the Muslim world, it's all about "me, me, me". All they care about is their land, their oil, their mosques. Their simple goal is to drive Israel "into the sea" (to quote Arafat) and drive the western "infidel" out of Iraq. Why? So they can have more land to themselves, and so they can oppress their women and children without the intervention of Human Rights Watch! That, folks, is the truth.

They hate all foreigners MUCH MORE than anyone here in the US who is called a "bigot" by the liberal end of the spectrum. In the Muslim world, if you shoot a wrong glance at a woman, you're liable to lose your head-- literally!

None of this equates to the "homophobia" exercised by a few straightforward thinking conservatives here in the US. Yes we fear the homosexual agenda because it poses a legitimate threat to the health and morals of the country that we and our ancestors made great. At least we don't cut their heads off, like the Muslims do to openly gay men in the Arab world! Yes there are a few far-right folks like Rudolph who step past the bounds of the First Amendment and take justice into their own hands. Is this justified? Who's to say? Is it justifiable for the medical establishment to make money by killing the unborn? That's the question Rudolph was asking.

So Midcan, you should take your ignorance somewhere else. When the rubber meets the road, you're the one who's defending a closed-minded view. You're the one who's defending the right to give violent traditions precedence over human rights, whether it be abortion clinics, or Islamic jihad.

[midcan5]

Patriot,

Specific and subjective can be very different. Subjective is personal and thus outside the area of debate, if you elect to stay in darkness that is your business. The argument over abortion is religious in nature, R followed those ideas just as any other religious fanatic would. His hatred of gays was probably slightly different but when dealing with fanatics, religion forms a background but it is not always the chief determinant of action. That is true for other religious fanatics as well. "Perhaps wrong" wtf does that mean? they were wrong. You make a fanatic sophisticated in your biased attempt to excuse his action - why not apply that to others? "Social" my foot, bigoted hatred is more like it. You sure admire the survivalist mentality, are you really a social darwinist with a patriotic religious cap on? I think so.

The rest of your post is a diatribe of ignorance and not really debatable.

www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm

[Patriot]

Midcan,

For a good personification of the word "ignorance" I suggest you look in the mirror. Without providing any evidence for your judgment calls, aside of the popular bias against conservatives (derived from the same masters of hyperbole who believe Bush is the spitting image of Hitler), you've seen fit to dump more of your liberal tripe into this discussion without so much as a scintilla of concrete fact.

Since you elected to gloss over the content in my erstwhile post-- choosing rather to dismiss it as "a diatribe of ignorance and not really debatable", I recommend that you provide evidentiary support for your erroneous accusations. Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

Question 1. When has the Muslim world sent forth an international aid society comparable to the Red Cross (which was founded by Christians)?

Question 2. When has the Muslim world contributed to the World Food Bank?

Question 3. When have American conservatives beheaded gay men in the manner that is customary in the Muslim world?

Question 4. Why are both the U.N. and Human Rights Watch paying more attention to Islamic countries than Christian countries in terms of human rights violations?

Provide concrete answers, or provide nothing at all.

[TNRighty]

Good points Patriot...I'd like to add to it.

When Indonesia, which is majority Muslim, was hit by the tsunami, it was the USA, majority Christian, that sent aid in the form of military resources and billions of public and private dollars. If the roles had been reversed, do you think the Muslim world would have provided aid to America?

Oh, wait, you don't have to answer that question. It was answered when Katrina hit New Orleans. Where were Muslims? They were in the street celebrating!

The bigger point is this...

Whenever radical islamists strike against Western cultures, apologists like Medican are the first to say stuff like, "Not all Muslims are bad." That of course would be true.

But when Eric Rudolf bombs an abortion clinic, you won't hear Medican defend and distinguish the majority of Christians from the isolated acts of one radical person. Instead, he uses that one event as a broad brush.

Here's the difference...A Christian country put Eric Rudolf in jail for what he did, even though he said he acted in the name of his religion. That's because America is governed by the rule of law, not a religious theocracy.

That's the difference between Christian Americans and the Muslim movement. They kill in the name of their religion and are celebrated for it. We don't do that. Had Eric Rudolf been a Muslim and beheaded an American journalist, he would be worshipped in the Muslim community.

[midcan5]

Question one

Who founded the Red Cross?
The Red Cross idea was born in 1859, when Henry Dunant, a young Swiss man, came upon the scene of a bloody battle in Solferino, Italy, between the armies of imperial Austria and the Franco-Sardinian alliance. Some 40,000 men lay dead or dying on the battlefield and the wounded were lacking medical attention. Dunant organized local people to bind the soldiers' wounds and to feed and comfort them. On his return, he called for the creation of national relief societies to assist those wounded in war, and pointed the way to the future Geneva Conventions.

In October 1863, The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to provide nonpartisan care to the wounded and sick in times of war. The Red Cross emblem was adopted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality and was to be used by national relief societies. In August 1864, the representatives of 12 governments signed the Geneva Convention Treaty. The extraordinary efforts of Henry Dunant led to the eventual establishment of the International Red Cross. Today, the Red Cross Movement incorporates the Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (the International Federation), as well as National Societies in 175 countries, including the American Red Cross of the United States.

www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_315_,00.html#385

2. again little knowledge of real world - check out last link we are the only industrialized nation with so much hunger - why is that?

First Christians have done some wonderful things for poverty.

And what exactly is the world food bank? The UN does much and its contributions come from a variety of nations. Our own contribution in aid is much lower per capital then other nations.

check the names in this link

www.ifad.org/media/press/2001/gc-01.htm

"One of the best ways to provide food security in the developing world is to assist small-scale farmers to become more productive," says Mr. Al-Sultan, president of the International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD).

The Rome-based IFAD is a specialized United Nations agency with a specific mandate to combat hunger and poverty by helping the rural poor in the poorest regions of the world. IFAD helps them increase their food production, raise their income and improve their health, nutrition and education standards.

207.57.8.38/institute/hunger_report/2000.html

3. beheaded gay men? Provide a valid link? don't get me wrong they are some wacky people but I think Pat Robertson is right up with them calling Katrina an act of god on gays. many Christians who called into cspan said the same.

4. agree - again I don't justify nuts but the debate is not about fringe wackos it is about the majority of Muslims. Just as the majority of Christians are not far right wackos. You also forget northern Ireland and the religious strife there in a western society. Wrongs are wrong is the point and wackos are wackos.

[Patriot]

TN Righty, how excellent to see you "on board" again, thanks for contributing to this thread.

[Patriot]

Midcan,

Dear, dear, dear Midcan. How you manage to lose yourself in a sea of superfluous taradiddle nearly baffles the mind. In looking over your post above, all I see are logical fallacies! That's right, and I'll spell them out for you one at a time.

In response to my question, "when has the Muslim world ever sent forth a relief agency similar to the Red Cross?", you replied:

The Red Cross idea was born in 1859, when Henry Dunant, a young Swiss man, came upon the scene of a bloody battle in Solferino, Italy, between the armies of imperial Austria and the Franco-Sardinian alliance. Some 40,000 men lay dead or dying on the battlefield and the wounded were lacking medical attention. Dunant organized local people to bind the soldiers' wounds and to feed and comfort them. On his return, he called for the creation of national relief societies to assist those wounded in war, and pointed the way to the future Geneva Conventions.

In October 1863, The International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to provide nonpartisan care to the wounded and sick in times of war. The Red Cross emblem was adopted at this first International Conference as a symbol of neutrality and was to be used by national relief societies. In August 1864, the representatives of 12 governments signed the Geneva Convention Treaty. The extraordinary efforts of Henry Dunant led to the eventual establishment of the International Red Cross. Today, the Red Cross Movement incorporates the Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (the International Federation), as well as National Societies in 175 countries, including the American Red Cross of the United States.

Thanks for the Red Herring Fallacy. Providing information on the origins of the Red Cross does not answer the question of when the Muslim world ever sent forth an international relief agency. Forget if you will the Red Cross and choose from any of the myriads of Christian medical missions around the world. Find a comparable foreign-based organization with roots in the Islamic heartland.

You wrote:

2. again little knowledge of real world

Pardon me but did you just say "again"? Little knowledge of the real world? You haven't yet shown me the first time I showed "little knowledge of the real world", but you are now simply utilizing verbiage to connote a secondary instance of personal ignorance on my part-- all without evidence! Thanks for showing us a prime example of the Ad Hominem Fallacy. Do yourself a favor and learn about the real world, starting with real logic.

- check out last link we are the only industrialized nation with so much hunger - why is that?

Introduction of irrelevant material coupled with an unrelated question. Thanks for displaying the Straw Man Fallacy.

The UN does much and its contributions come from a variety of nations. Our own contribution in aid is much lower per capital then other nations.

More generalizations but no concrete facts on Islamic contribution to the health and welfare of the UN's humanitarian programs. To the contrary, some Muslim countries continually ignore UN mandates!

Just an idea, but you might want to actually think before typing. Try rubbing your two IQ points together and see if you can make a few sparks.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

3. beheaded gay men?

You're right, Muslims have a more humane way of disposing of their "undesirables":

midcan5 said:

don't get me wrong they are some wacky people but I think Pat Robertson is right up with them calling Katrina an act of god on gays. many Christians who called into cspan said the same.

Until you can provide some evidence that Pat Robertson holds some supernatural power to create and direct natural disasters, then I can't really agree with you on equating someone who sticks their foot in their own mouth with someone who sticks a gun in someone else’s.

[midcan5]

Come on guys surely you can do better than this?

You wrote 'founded by Christians' - since that is wrong your point doesn't stand.

Yes, 'again,' since you did not know who founded the red cross what proof is there you know the other statements to be true? Throwing out questions is not debating. I don't have time to counter every wrong thing you write, that would be a full time job. Show me some comparison where it states what you assume.

While not relevant the piece on hunger points to a critical item that the organization doing the help is in Italy has a Arab as president - I do not know his religion - and actually studies the shameful situation of hunger in this country where we have plenty.

And suppose tomorrow you discover that Muslims give generously to help others - would that change anything for you?


www.ing.org/latestnews/default.asp?num=31

What are the pictures of and why etc. Again societies ruled by religion are wacky - imagine Robertson running this nation for a second. As soon as you righties turn this nation into a theocracy we will have the same. lol

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

What are the pictures of and why etc.

Gay Iranian teenagers being hanged by the state.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

www.ing.org/latestnews/default.asp?num=31

The mission statement of the orginization you linked to is:

1) Supplement existing cultural diversity & tolerance programs in public institutions through informative presentations that develop greater awareness & knowledge of Islam and Muslims

2) Improve the quality of life of Muslims in America through cultural competency training in schools, district offices, law enforcement agencies, corporations, social service agencies, and hospitals.

3) Promote civic engagement by Muslim-Americans in public institutions.

The intention, as is the intention of any Muslim goodwill program, is to further the Muslim agenda or strengthen the Muslim state. If there exists no tangible benefit to Islam, there is no reason for Muslims to engage in charitable actions. Nothing is good but that which benefits Islam.

[midcan5]

www.muslimaid.org/subpages.php?section=news&sub=pressrelease&down=yes

Speaks for itself but why do I have to bring to your attention smething you would know if you lived in the real world and not the world of ideological darkness.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

www.muslimaid.org/subpages.php?section=news&sub=pressrelease&down=yes

Speaks for itself but why do I have to bring to your attention smething you would know if you lived in the real world and not the world of ideological darkness.

Did you read my previous post? It might do you some good to go back over that. The intention of any Muslim charity is to strengthen the Muslim community. That’s why on almost all Muslim charity websites you find a tag explaining the “virtuous” and “peaceful” nature of Islam. Don’t you find that peculiar?

Let’s break it down shall we?

Even the quotes of the Qur’an on MuslimAid’s site are taken out of context. For instance, in their attempt to portray Islam as a noble, generous, open-minded religion they cite:

'And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity. And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees Well all that ye do.' (Qur'an 2:110)

This would be a beautiful quote if it wasn’t for the fact that it is directed at Israel as a threat, rather than Muslims as an encouragement. Quote #2:

'So establish regular prayer and give regular charity; and obey the Apostle; that ye may receive mercy.' (Qur'an 24:56)

I feel like a fool. I’ve just found an open-minded verse in the Qur’an…Wait a minute, here’s the verse immediately following:

‘Never think thou that the Unbelievers are going to frustrate ((Allah)'s Plan) on earth: their abode is the Fire,- and it is indeed an evil refuge!’ (Qur'an 24:57)

Hmm, that’s an interesting quote. Makes you wonder what the Muslim meaning of “charity” is...

This next quote comes from the Meccan section of the Qur’an which is the, for lack of a better term, toned down section of the Qur’an because its chapters and verses were compiled from Mohammad’s early years in Mecca, before he was rebuffed and fled to Medina:

'For those who give in charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit) and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward.' (Qur'an 57:18)

However, even in Mecca Mohammed had an edge to him (immediately following verse):

‘And those who believe in Allah and His apostles- they are the Sincere (lovers of Truth), and the witnesses (who testify), in the eyes of their Lord: They shall have their Reward and their Light. But those who reject Allah and deny Our Signs,- they are the Companions of Hell-Fire.’ (Qur'an 57:19)



I might also make you aware of the principle of abrogation in Islam. So any verses you might find in the Koran, in the unlikely event you feel the need to read text on something you defend, you’ll understand are cancelled by the later, more violent verses of the Medinan section. My cite:

‘None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?’ (Qur’an 2:106)

Still don't understand my logic? It might do you some good to look up the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and study the events following it.

[Patriot]

Midcan:

The url you provided¹, if examined carefully, shows that the entirety of the aid bestowed by the society is upon Muslim countries and Islamic-run organizations. That hardly constitutes an unbiased, international relief effort.

Although the website states that the society works in 50 countries across Africa, Asia, Europe and the Caribbean, the press releases show that the singular focus of the organization is helping the Islamic community. I kept looking to find an instance of Islamic aid to a non-Muslim establishment or ethnography in the press releases offered, but, nary a one was uncovered. ² This is further evidenced by the fact that the site's banner hashes and rehashes a slue of Muslim childrens' photographs. There is no diversity represented at all.





_______________
¹ www.muslimaid.org/subpages.php?section=news&sub=pressrelease&down=yes
² www.muslimaid.org/subpages.php?section=news&sub=currentaffairs&down=yes

[midcan5]

Now it is diversity you want! hmmm....

The thing here is it doesn't matter where or how they give help. If you ask a question and I find proof they do give aid you rephrase the question so that another answer is required. This is not about understanding something, it is about your personal prejudices and the attempt to defend them against contradictory information. Anyone who has lived an experienced life knows that there is always more around the corner. Your refusal to think, and to view an entire religion through a stereotype is not something information can change. The fact it has no grounding in reality is the scary part for any society. Scapegoating and labeling whole groups are among the toughest prejudices to counter.

You could just as easily find Christian groups that only support certain things - what would that prove?


"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward." Franklin D. Roosevelt