Post by greenfire on Feb 1, 2008 5:17:29 GMT -5
Hmm, let's see if I understand the anti-choice argument at it's core....y'all think that once a sperm and egg unite, the result is a person with full human rights from that moment on. A pro-choicer may argue, "no, it's only a potential human, since it requires the mother, and lots of luck, i.e. attaching to the uterine wall, not miscarrying, etc., to become human." To which you respond, "doesn't matter, since it Could, it's a human being. They're all human, even the ones that only survive a couple days."
I'm wondering, why do you start at conception? Why don't you start at the egg and sperm, with your reasoning? Let's take sperm, for example. If your main criteria is Potential, each sperm is a potential human. All you need is a woman with an egg, right? Just like with a united egg and sperm (zygote), all you need is a woman and a uterine wall. Once you release a sperm, it does the rest, seeking out and uniting with the egg. Just like the zygote does all the rest--with the help of the woman's uterus. So really, doesn't a sperm (arguably a moving, living creature containing everything a human needs, as long as there's a woman with an egg around) deserve the same protection as a zygote, by your reasoning? Men should only be allowed to ejaculate when attempting to conceive, right? I mean, that's the purpose of ejaculation, isn't it? So, masturbation is muder, as is spermicide. You should be punished for jerking off just like a woman who deliberately miscarries a pregnancy.
Oh I know what you're saying--"No, if I'm masturbating I'm not TRYING to get a woman pregnant." True. But lots of people get pregnant without trying, just from trying to pleasure themselves by having sex. They end up with a zygote--which has Potential, just like your sperm does. Both just require a woman's body.
I know, I know, you're saying "But my body produces sperm all the time, whether I ejaculate it or not." True! Perhaps all egg and sperm should be subject to government control, at least by your reasoning. But in any case, your sperm just sits and waits inside you. Once you start the process of ejaculation, you've started down the path of no return. The sperm activate and start swimming! You have activated their Potential, just like a egg is activated when a sperm unites with it. All they both need, is a woman's body.
Any way, it doesn't really matter what you intended with that sperm, does it? The fact is, you produced it. So you're responsible for its Potential. Just like a woman who's unfortunate enough to be raped while ovulating doesn't intend for the Potential of her egg to be realized.
So when it comes right down to it, there's no real difference between that Plan B pill a woman takes, to nip that potential in the bud, and your kleenex, to catch that naughty sperm and its potential, is there?
Here's some hypotheticals...
A woman is raped. Plan B, which prevents attachment to the uterine wall, is murder, right? Let's say some women burst into your room as you're jacking off, hold you down, take some of your fresh semen and put it in a test tube with an egg right on the spot. You wrestle free and grab the test tube! You want to smash it......does it really make a difference whether the sperm and egg have united in the test tube yet?
So are you willing to subject your body to government regulation? Only ejaculate for procreation? If a woman has to, so do you, right?
No?
Did you know that some animals have the ability to abort at will under some conditions? Rabbits, for example. Pregnant females will reabsorb developing fetuses under some circumstances (if they're overcrowded, for example), even if they're healthy. Go ahead and Google it, it's true. Some scientists believe that all mammals have this ability to some extent. It's a mind-body thing. Or perhaps it's God's will. Who knows?
If a stressed-out, unhappy woman miscarries, did she possibly commit murder?
If a stressed-out, unhappy woman takes a combination of herbs that cause premature contractions which cause a miscarriage (like some of our ancestors did), did she commit murder?
Have you read about the ability of the uterus to detect abnormal development, and spontaneously abort? Go ahead and Google it. Is it murder?
Men have used a method of contraception involving putting their balls in a teacup of hot water, to kill the sperm, before having sex (Google it). Is it murder?
Doesn't any conscious intervention in the natural reproduction process constitute muder, by your reasoning? It's stopping something that Could otherwise result in a child, right? So, spermicide, condoms, Plan B, abortion, pulling out before you come, they're all the same, aren't they?
The reality is, it only becomes a person if the woman allows it to. Consciously or not, the woman's body decides whether the zygote will develop into a fetus or not. Just like you decide whether you will allow your sperm to be released. She has the power to give life, or not, just like you do, just at different stages of the process.
That's why the courts decided that it's not a person until the woman is finished making it a person, or finished enough for it to survive outside her body in the same way a child can. That;s why she has the right to halt the process before that point, just like you have the right to halt your part in the process before it's completed.
I know, I know, you believe that life begins at conception. That's what your church teaches, right? Well, your church used to teach that each sperm contained a whole miniature human being, and the woman was just the "soil" that the man planted his "seed" in (read your History). The church used to consider masturbation a sin. All those little humans, murdered...And contraception? Forget it. The church didn't even know about conception until those secular humanist scientists explained it to them. They didn't take it too well. Kinda like when Galileo told them the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe.....so I hope you'll understand my skepticism about your claim of the sacred status of the moment of conception. If you ask me, the processes that create the egg and sperm to begin with are the most amazing. Conception is just putting the 2 pieces together. Why not say that life begins at spermatogenesis, in the testicles?
Reasoned, rational arguments, anyone?
I'm wondering, why do you start at conception? Why don't you start at the egg and sperm, with your reasoning? Let's take sperm, for example. If your main criteria is Potential, each sperm is a potential human. All you need is a woman with an egg, right? Just like with a united egg and sperm (zygote), all you need is a woman and a uterine wall. Once you release a sperm, it does the rest, seeking out and uniting with the egg. Just like the zygote does all the rest--with the help of the woman's uterus. So really, doesn't a sperm (arguably a moving, living creature containing everything a human needs, as long as there's a woman with an egg around) deserve the same protection as a zygote, by your reasoning? Men should only be allowed to ejaculate when attempting to conceive, right? I mean, that's the purpose of ejaculation, isn't it? So, masturbation is muder, as is spermicide. You should be punished for jerking off just like a woman who deliberately miscarries a pregnancy.
Oh I know what you're saying--"No, if I'm masturbating I'm not TRYING to get a woman pregnant." True. But lots of people get pregnant without trying, just from trying to pleasure themselves by having sex. They end up with a zygote--which has Potential, just like your sperm does. Both just require a woman's body.
I know, I know, you're saying "But my body produces sperm all the time, whether I ejaculate it or not." True! Perhaps all egg and sperm should be subject to government control, at least by your reasoning. But in any case, your sperm just sits and waits inside you. Once you start the process of ejaculation, you've started down the path of no return. The sperm activate and start swimming! You have activated their Potential, just like a egg is activated when a sperm unites with it. All they both need, is a woman's body.
Any way, it doesn't really matter what you intended with that sperm, does it? The fact is, you produced it. So you're responsible for its Potential. Just like a woman who's unfortunate enough to be raped while ovulating doesn't intend for the Potential of her egg to be realized.
So when it comes right down to it, there's no real difference between that Plan B pill a woman takes, to nip that potential in the bud, and your kleenex, to catch that naughty sperm and its potential, is there?
Here's some hypotheticals...
A woman is raped. Plan B, which prevents attachment to the uterine wall, is murder, right? Let's say some women burst into your room as you're jacking off, hold you down, take some of your fresh semen and put it in a test tube with an egg right on the spot. You wrestle free and grab the test tube! You want to smash it......does it really make a difference whether the sperm and egg have united in the test tube yet?
So are you willing to subject your body to government regulation? Only ejaculate for procreation? If a woman has to, so do you, right?
No?
Did you know that some animals have the ability to abort at will under some conditions? Rabbits, for example. Pregnant females will reabsorb developing fetuses under some circumstances (if they're overcrowded, for example), even if they're healthy. Go ahead and Google it, it's true. Some scientists believe that all mammals have this ability to some extent. It's a mind-body thing. Or perhaps it's God's will. Who knows?
If a stressed-out, unhappy woman miscarries, did she possibly commit murder?
If a stressed-out, unhappy woman takes a combination of herbs that cause premature contractions which cause a miscarriage (like some of our ancestors did), did she commit murder?
Have you read about the ability of the uterus to detect abnormal development, and spontaneously abort? Go ahead and Google it. Is it murder?
Men have used a method of contraception involving putting their balls in a teacup of hot water, to kill the sperm, before having sex (Google it). Is it murder?
Doesn't any conscious intervention in the natural reproduction process constitute muder, by your reasoning? It's stopping something that Could otherwise result in a child, right? So, spermicide, condoms, Plan B, abortion, pulling out before you come, they're all the same, aren't they?
The reality is, it only becomes a person if the woman allows it to. Consciously or not, the woman's body decides whether the zygote will develop into a fetus or not. Just like you decide whether you will allow your sperm to be released. She has the power to give life, or not, just like you do, just at different stages of the process.
That's why the courts decided that it's not a person until the woman is finished making it a person, or finished enough for it to survive outside her body in the same way a child can. That;s why she has the right to halt the process before that point, just like you have the right to halt your part in the process before it's completed.
I know, I know, you believe that life begins at conception. That's what your church teaches, right? Well, your church used to teach that each sperm contained a whole miniature human being, and the woman was just the "soil" that the man planted his "seed" in (read your History). The church used to consider masturbation a sin. All those little humans, murdered...And contraception? Forget it. The church didn't even know about conception until those secular humanist scientists explained it to them. They didn't take it too well. Kinda like when Galileo told them the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe.....so I hope you'll understand my skepticism about your claim of the sacred status of the moment of conception. If you ask me, the processes that create the egg and sperm to begin with are the most amazing. Conception is just putting the 2 pieces together. Why not say that life begins at spermatogenesis, in the testicles?
Reasoned, rational arguments, anyone?