Americans Stand Up

[scrap]

Banjo said:

Perhaps its not God that offends, or even Christianity. But the manner of devotion and the fact that religion is finding its way into political life. Policy should not be set by faith, but by critical reasoning. If George Bush was a little bit smarter, he might be able to that. As it is we're stuffed!

Banjo:
George Bush is not setting policy by faith he uses his faith and beliefs to help guide his reasoning like any normal person should.

The only people who are stuffed apparently are you liberals, by the way what exactly do you mean by stuffed?


What exactly do you mean by religion finding its way into political life?

Our forefathers founded this Country with Christian beliefs.

Why do you think so many of our courthouses and federal buildings have so many religious carvings and icons imbedded in them.

A year or so ago a judge I think it was in Alabama lost his job because he refused to kowtow to the powers that be.
He refused to take a marble figure with the ten commandments out of either his courtroom or the courthouse itself.

I don't think separatoin of church and state was meant to cover this type of situation.

Regarding the constitution and religion.
Did you not know the constitution was formed around christianity?

James Wilson, signer of the constitution and Justice of the Supreme Court: "Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters. The divine law forms an essential part of both".

House Judiciary Committee of 1854: "There is no substitute for christianity. That was the religion of the Founders of the Republic and they expect it to remain the religion of their decendants".

If you do not believe in God, this does not matter, but if you do, you can not change WHAT IS WRITTEN.
Our founding fathers would be appalled at all the Legalizations of God's don'ts for the sake of our constitutional rights............................

[BOLO]

Scrap. There is no, and never has been, any constitutional separation of church and state. You can search the Constitution from one end to the other. You will not see the words 'separation of church and state."
SCOTUS made it up from whole cloth based on the Jeffersonian papers, the Federalist.

JEB SAID.: One value that I can say is a part of American culture, and this editorial does not bring up, is equal rights. One has the right to pray to any god or not. One has the right to speak any language or not. One has the right to a just and equitable education. One has the right to be treated with respect and dignitiy no matter where they come from. One has the right to question. These are the rights that hard working Americans, namely people of color, union workers, and women have fought to protect and help make our country a desirable place to live and makes this a great country

No right exist to speak any language.
No right to an education exist either.
Being treated with respect and dignity is earned. Not a right.
Those rights that do exist and can be found in the Amendments to the Constitution were fought for by Men and Women in a War against tyranny in begun in 1763 and ended in 1783. It was sustained by those same men and women and their descendants in subsequent Wars up to and including this one against terror.
The Bill of Rights are the first Ten. 11 thru 27 enumerate applications and changes as well as housekeeping and legal standings.
Those rights enumerated in the first ten amendments are the only rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
All others as claimed are considered to be commonly accepted but have no basis or root in the Constitution.

Banjo said: Perhaps its not God that offends, or even Christianity. But the manner of devotion and the fact that religion is finding its way into political life. Policy should not be set by faith, but by critical reasoning. If George Bush was a little bit smarter, he might be able to that. As it is we're stuffed!

How do you go about separating your Christian beliefs from your everyday life? People like you amaze me. Christian belief is not a coat you put on when needed and take off when not. All of us that are Christan use that belief system to GUIDE our lives. No one can remove it with out removing a part of themselves. Yet you and those like you seem to feel you can.
Has the president TOLD you that you MUST accept a religion or even his religion?
Has he ruled that you MUST attend Church? That you must worship as he does and as he directs?
Has he ordered Atheist and Agnostics to leave the country or be jailed?
What foolishness do you talk and why do you talk it? You are stuffed? How?
The decisions made by President Bush are the decision made by a man faced with a dilemma and a problem. That he uses his Christian Faith to guide his response is normal and acceptable. Saddam's response to problems and dilemmas was mass murder and poison gas on his neighbors. No Christian or any other type of belief there. I prefer Christian or true believer to non believer. any day.

[lisa]

Jeb said:

namely people of color, union workers, and women have fought to protect and help make our country a desirable place to live and makes this a great country!
-Jeb

You had me till right here. My husband is a white male, one of those discriminated against, and he would stand for any one's right to equality if needs be.
It was those European White Males that gave us this country to begin with. So while I agree that we all have equal rights to education, work, pay etc. please do not insult the intelligence of the rest of us by saying "namely" people of color (blacks) women (I am one of those thank you) and union workers. Many white males have fought in wars for those freedoms as well.

[Jeb]

Scraps,

I question your statement "the Constitution was formed around christianity."

Although our founding fathers had a sensitivity to spiritualism, it is false to claim that they wanted to create a christian theocracy. They wanted to create a democracy. Please read the writings of Thomas Jefferson, Tom Paine, John Adams, and Alexander Hamilton concerning christianity.

Amendment 1 states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Where in the Constitution does it state anything about "God" or "Christianity"?

Only 7-10% of the population America belonged to a church at the time that the Declaration of Independence was signed.


Bolo,

I like your enthusiasm for our Constitution. However, if you look closely at what our brilliantly vague Constitution states you would find the rights I talked about included.
The right to speak any language: Amendment 1 (freedom of speech)
The right for respect and dignity: Look up the multitude of state, federal court cases that have struck down discrimiantory laws and practices.
The right for a just and equitable education: See Brown V. Board of Education

It still stands that equal rights is value that a majority of Americans hold to be true. Don't you agree?

(This is off the subject, just a couple of interesting facts that some folks aren't aware of. Iraq has a population of christians who lived with minimal hinderances from Saddam. Tariq Aziz, who was Saddam's spokesperson, is a christian...the U.S. supplied Saddam with chemical weapons he used agains the Khurds and Iranians.)


Lisa,
Thanks for your reply. I am not questioning the service of white men and women (black people as well have fought in every American war since the revolution while not being treated equally as their white counterparts throughout most of those wars.) however, there are poeple in our country who have forgotten that before the Civil Rights movement our government did not treat all Americans as equal. It was the Civil Rights movement that forced our government to come to terms with its' racism and live up to its' it claim to treat all equally. That was my point.

[scrap]

quote:

Scrap. There is no, and never has been, any constitutional separation of church and state. You can search the Constitution from one end to the other. You will not see the words 'separation of church and state."
SCOTUS made it up from whole cloth based on the Jeffersonian papers, the Federalist.

I did check it out and your correct which goes to help my point.

Why then is the ACLU and every other organization of its kind doing there damnest to separate the two.

Why did the Judge I spoke of earlier lose his job?

This country bends over so far backwards to assuage people that its losing its identity, which was my point in the opening thread.

What's wrong with school prayer, reciting the Pledge of allegience in class and a myriad of others that have been taken away because it offends.

This is America they should bend not us. ;

[TNRighty]

This is a response to Jeb's first post.

Here's what he said.

"One value that I can say is a part of American culture, and this editorial does not bring up, is equal rights. One has the right to pray to any god or not. One has the right to speak any language or not. One has the right to a just and equitable education. One has the right to be treated with respect and dignitiy no matter where they come from. One has the right to question. These are the rights that hard working Americans, namely people of color, union workers, and women have fought to protect and help make our country a desirable place to live and makes this a great country!"

I agree with most of that. If you immigrate to this country and chose to continue to speak your native language instead of English, that is your right, and don't suggest that anyone is preventing you from excercising that right. As far as I know there are no laws against speaking Spanish, French, German, Swahili, piglatin, or ebonics. However, if your decision not to learn and speak proper English causes you to be left behind economically and educationally, no one else is responsible for that but you. Its not our job to teach English to non-English speaking immigrants. Neither is it our responsibility to learn how to speak your native tongue.

Again, noone has ever made it law that you have to learn to speak English if you come to the USA. But, if you want to be able to participate fully and productively in our economic and social structure, learning English is one of the first things you need to do.

You don't have the right to be treated with respect and dignity. Contrarily, you do have the right to be as hateful and disrespectful as you want so long as you don't inflict personal harm on someone, but you have no right to demand that people treat you with respect. I would certainly hope that most people would treat others with respect, but noone is forced to do so.

[BOLO]

Bolo,

I like your enthusiasm for our Constitution. However, if you look closely at what our brilliantly vague Constitution states you would find the rights I talked about included.
The right to speak any language: Amendment 1 (freedom of speech)
The right for respect and dignity: Look up the multitude of state, federal court cases that have struck down discrimiantory laws and practices.
The right for a just and equitable education: See Brown V. Board of Education

It still stands that equal rights is value that a majority of Americans hold to be true. Don't you agree?

Jeb.
Indeed I have much enthusiasm for the Constitution. You misread it or read what you want into it. Freedom of Speech does not, and never has, meant speaking any language you choose. The Courts have so ruled. Freedom of speech means Freedom of Political Speech.
As I stated others rights are commonly accepted. never the less they are not rights They are in effect privileges allowed by the freedoms we enjoy. Some states have pushed for amendments making English the Official language. The Courts have already ruled that that is not an infringement of the First amendment. Many people apparently including you would like for the Constitution to be a living breathing flexible document. It is not.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

Read the whole thing in it's entirety. It applies to Political Speech. It also says no one shall abridge it. it has been, successfully, more than twice. The Hatch Act and McCain Feingold.
Below is some case law concerning Freedom of Speech.
Adoption and the Common Law Background

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/06.html#1
Note the underlined words.

Whatever the general unanimity on this proposition at the time of the proposal of and ratification of the First Amendment, it appears that there emerged in the course of the Jeffersonian counterattack on the Sedition Act and the use by the Adams Administration of the Act to prosecute its political opponents, something of a libertarian theory of freedom of speech and press, which, however much the Jeffersonians may have departed from it upon assuming power, was to blossom into the theory undergirding Supreme Court First Amendment jurisprudence in modern times. Full acceptance of the theory that the Amendment operates not only to bar most prior restraints of expression but subsequent punishment of all but a narrow range of expression, in political discourse and indeed in all fields of expression, dates from a quite recent period, although the Court's movement toward that position began in its consideration of limitations on speech and press in the period following World War I. Thus, in 1907, Justice Holmes could observe that even if the Fourteenth Amendment embodied prohibitions similar to the First Amendment, ''still we should be far from the conclusion that the plaintiff in error would have us reach. In the first place, the main purpose of such constitutional provisions is 'to prevent all such previous restraints upon publications as had been practiced by other governments,' and they do not prevent the subsequent punishment of such as may be deemed contrary to the public welfare . . . . The preliminary freedom extends as well to the false as to the true; the subsequent punishment may extend as well to the true as to the false. This was the law of criminal libel apart from statute in most cases, if not in all.'' But as Justice Holmes also observed, ''[t]here is no constitutional right to have all general propositions of law once adopted remain unchanged.''

Striking down discriminatory laws and practices is called Equal Rights not Respect and Dignity. I have no requirement to, and there is no law, which says I must, respect you nor treat you with dignity.
You extend a right from a tree which does not exist. You misread Brown V. It provides an EQUAL right TO an education it does not guarantee one nor say that a right exist to have an education at public expense.
In every State of this Union there are laws which allow a student to be suspended or terminated for varying reasons including conduct and inability to learn. No successful challenge to these laws has ever been mounted. With respect to education what the LAW says, not the Constitution, is that if you provide education on the public dole it must be accessible to all. It does not state that there is a right to an education.
Brown v says you can not discriminate. The Constitution is not all vague. It is written to a simple purpose and in simple text. Many try to Interpret it. The only acceptable interpretation comes (for now) from SCOTUS.

This is off the subject, just a couple of interesting facts that some folks aren't aware of. Iraq has a population of Christians who lived with minimal hinderances from Saddam. Tariq Aziz, who was Saddam's spokesperson, is a christian...the U.S. supplied Saddam with chemical weapons he used agains the Khurds and Iranians

You err when you state baldly that Saddam left the Christians alone. Indeed he did not leave Tariq alone. he imprisoned his family on several occasions. There are mass graves filled with Christians. That is a popular left wing fallacy and lie. Repeated often enough that the left wing has begun to believe it.
As to the rest:

While it is true that the Reagan/Bush and Bush/Quayle administrations provided weapons and financial aid to Saddam Hussein, at the time Saddam Hussein was our close ally and was only using these weapons of mass destruction against other Arabs. There was no way to predict that a psychotic Arab dictator would ever turn against us. Bottom line: George H. W. Bush never sold any more conventional weapons or weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein after Iraq attacked Kuwait in 1991.

Japan was once an Ally prior to WW II. Many of the weapons she used came from guess where?
In Viet Nam we found shells that came from American Foundries. What's you point?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Blessings is a Christian concept. Blessings has few connotations outside of religion.

As to Christian beliefs in the founding of this country.
Read this.

WHEN in the Course of human Events,
it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness --

It's the Declaration of Independence. Note the words, God, and Creator, as well as Laws of Nature and Natures God.
Doesn't say Allah or Mohammad, or YHWH (Hebraic) pronounced Yahweh. We none the less recognize them but the root founding for this Country was Christian beliefs.

[Jeb]

Bolo,

Isn't it great that we live in a country where all can interpret, question, and discuss things! That's democracy and that is why this is a great country. I respect the time you have put into interpreting the Constitution, however I do not agree. TEXT Walk into a law library and look at all of the interpretaions of rights and laws. It is simply false to say that there is only one way, your interpretation of the Constitution, as the right way. It is up to the court system to decide which of the many interpretaions stands.


Again, a majority of Americans value treating people with dignity and respect and that all should be entitled to education. Don't most Americans as well as religions teach their youth to treat people with dignity and respect? True, you can lose those things if you break the rules or laws. Some of the things that I talked about may not be specific rights, but are values that have been extrapolated from rights.

It is just plain false to claim that Saddam mass murdered Iraqi Christians. Please provide verifiable evidence, not from Fox news or some other radical right wing think tank, that he did. Christians have lived in Iraq since biblical times and have lived basically un-persecuted throughout Saddam's regime. It wasn't until the U.S. invasion and insuing chaos did a portion of Iraqi Christians leave the county for fear that Iraqi Muslims would react violently against them. Tariq's family was imprisoned after the U.S. invaded for political reasons, not religious.

Maybe the U.S, shouldn't sell WMD to unstable foriegn nations who will eventually use American made weapons to kill American soldiers as well as commit atrocites on other people.

Again, the U.S. is and always will be a secular nation. Everyone is entitled to practice their own religion. Again please read the writings of Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Alexader Hamilton concerning Christianity. It is a far leap in logic to state due to a couple of words in the Declaration of Independence that that meant the U.S. was intended to be a Christian theocracy.

Thanks for the discussion!

[BOLO]

Isn't it great that we live in a country where all can interpret, question, and discuss things!

Absolutely. You can even assert things that are not so, but want to believe are. Take for instance the Flat Earth Society. They do exist. They maintain that the world is flat. It isn't and we know it but they maintain that assertion.

That's democracy and that is why this is a great country. I respect the time you have put into interpreting the Constitution, however I do not agree. TEXT Walk into a law library and look at all of the interpretaions of rights and laws. It is simply false to say that there is only one way, your interpretation of the Constitution, as the right way. It is up to the court system to decide which of the many interpretaions stands.

I said that. It is not my interpretation it is the courts. Since my forte for some twenty years was Law enforcement, walking into a law library is something I did and still do quite often.

Again, a majority of Americans value treating people with dignity and respect and that all should be entitled to education. Don't most Americans as well as religions teach their youth to treat people with dignity and respect? True, you can lose those things if you break the rules or laws. Some of the things that I talked about may not be specific rights, but are values that have been extrapolated from rights.

We semi agree. They sprout from the tree of freedom. But they are not Rights (The Trunk) they are limbs subject to pruning.
Cite any case you like at the Federal level that was upheld that says those are rights. I would very much like to see the one on Language.

It is just plain false to claim that Saddam mass murdered Iraqi Christians. Please provide verifiable evidence, not from Fox news or some other radical right wing think tank, that he did. Christians have lived in Iraq since biblical times and have lived basically un-persecuted throughout Saddam's regime. It wasn't until the U.S. invasion and insuing chaos did a portion of Iraqi Christians leave the county for fear that Iraqi Muslims would react violently against them. Tariq's family was imprisoned after the U.S. invaded for political reasons, not religious.

Incorrect. Tariq's family {Chaldeans} were imprisoned before our Invasion. Long before. It happened more than once. The last time just shortly before the invasion, not after.
It is false to make untrue assertations and cite as facts that which is not a fact, merely an assumption based on feelings rather than the truth.

{excerpt}In the late 1990s, when Aziz failed to persuade the United Nations to lift the sanctions imposed on Iraq at the end of the Gulf war, Saddam briefly imprisoned the politician's eldest son as punishment.
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3124.htm

The stories have been all over. However since you cite Fox as radical right wing you remove any further discussion. All other media is left Wing Radical Liberal outlets and therefore untrustworthy. Thus no discussion can go forward as you have placed a untrue appellation on one of the many news outlets. I am not even prepared to give you that Fox is right wing.
Not with Juan Williams, Allen Colmes, Greta Van Sustern and Geraldo Rivera and many others on it. No way.
However the stories can be found at CNN ( Radical Liberal Outlet) and the New York Times (Ultra Radical Liberal Outlet.)

{Excerpt}Saddam Hussein’s regime maintained power through a policy of silencing opposition from the Iraqi people with brutal executions for more than 20 years. Mass graves in Iraq contain the remains all groups from Iraqi society, including Kurds, Shi’a, Sunnis, Christians and foreign prisoners of war and other civilians who were executed in violation of international law.
www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/graves.htm

Maybe the U.S, shouldn't sell WMD to unstable foriegn nations who will eventually use American made weapons to kill American soldiers as well as commit atrocites on other people.

Maybe so. We the only ones that do that?
How much prescience is a Government supposed to have? As far as I can tell all prescience seems to 100% (Hindsight) from Liberals who like to bring up tired old clichés and semi truisms that never reflect changing circumstances. I wonder how much prescience Calvin Coolidge should have had when it came to WMD in WW I.

Again, the U.S. is and always will be a secular nation. Everyone is entitled to practice their own religion. Again please read the writings of Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Alexader Hamilton concerning Christianity. It is a far leap in logic to state due to a couple of words in the Declaration of Independence that that meant the U.S. was intended to be a Christian theocracy.

You seem bound and determined to misinterpret what I and others have said. We did not say they wanted to establish a Christian Theocracy. We said the roots of this Countries founding was in Christianity. It is. That you chose to deliberately misinterpret is telling.
Why do you believe that I have not read the works of those you cite? Is it that you believe only you have?
These were thing I was taught in school. As I grew I read more. I have read the words. I understand them.
Also. I do not shortchange any of the Words in the Constitution. All of them meant something as a whole. They were not 'just a couple of words"
P. S. While you're thinking about it, how about explaining why those 300,000 or so dead people in mass graves had to die? What was the crime? Was it OK for Saddam to kill them that way? Is it easy to dismiss them as unimportant?

[Ian]

Again please read the writings of Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Alexader Hamilton

Here are some facts about Thomas Jefferson and Faith that are not always highlighted by Jeffersonian liberals:

1. In 1774, while in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson called for a Day of Fasting and Prayer. “To invoke the Divine interposition to give to the American people one heart and one mind to oppose by all just means every injury to American rights.”<br>
2. As governor of Virginia 1779-1781, Jefferson issued a proclamation for a day of “public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God. That he would in mercy look down upon us, pardon all our sins, and receive us into His favor; and finally that He would establish the Independence of these United States upon the basis of religion and virtue.”<br>
3. President Jefferson, in 1802 extended the Northwest Ordinance so that Ohio could become a state. Article III stated: Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall be forever encouraged.”<br>
4. In 1802 the churches of Alexandria County Virginia were allowed a tax exemption that was signed into federal law by Jefferson.

5. On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered a National Prayer for Peace: “Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning and pure manners. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth. In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.”<br>
6. Jefferson signed the Articles of War, in 1806 that stated: “Earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services.” Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services. In each of two inaugural addresses, Jefferson included a prayer.

Jefferson’s well-known phrase, “wall of separation between church and state,” was to assure the Danbury Baptists Association there would be no government recognized church in America as was established in England. A legal separation of church and state was created in the First Amendment to protect the prevalent Christian faiths of the era, and all faiths, from government intrusion and to prevent domination by any one faith. Not to prevent the impression of Christian principles on the American government.

And let's not forget A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments., but I'll leave that for later.

[BOLO]

Jefferson’s well-known phrase, “wall of separation between church and state,” was to assure the Danbury Baptists Association there would be no government recognized church in America as was established in England. A legal separation of church and state was created in the First Amendment to protect the prevalent Christian faiths of the era, and all faiths, from government intrusion and to prevent domination by any one faith. Not to prevent the impression of Christian principles on the American government.

Nailed.

[scrap]

Quote:
Jefferson’s well-known phrase, “wall of separation between church and state,” was to assure the Danbury Baptists Association there would be no government recognized church in America as was established in England. A legal separation of church and state was created in the First Amendment to protect the prevalent Christian faiths of the era, and all faiths, from government intrusion and to prevent domination by any one faith. Not to prevent the impression of Christian principles on the American government.

WELL PUT

[Ian]

Thank you. ;D

[Mentzesr]

Most americans are still christian, so what is with this panic? No one is imposing on your right to believe in God or celebrate chirstmas.

As for people coming here, you can ask a person to learn a new language but please don't ask them to say merry christmas.

[BOLO]

No one is imposing on your right to believe in God or celebrate chirstmas.

Thanks for pointing that out to us.
We are so stupid we have been believing that just that thing is happening.
But hey! Since you are so much smarter than us and have so much more knowledges, if you say it isn't happening, then it isn't.
We needed that. (Sides, I wasn't going to celibrate chirstmas. I planned on celebrating Christmas though.)
Thanks again.