I'm sick of the propaganda.

[Ogilvy]

I just read an article in Time on wounded soldiers in Iraq, specifically those who had to have their arms and legs amputated. Several lines caught my attention immediately.

"[referring to Kevlar vests and helmets] While this gear shields the head and heart--along with the liver, lungs and guts--it leaves the extremities exposed. That's why 2 of every 3 wounds incurred by U.S. troops in Iraq involve legs or arms. It's also why some 100 U.S. troops have lost legs, arms, hands or feet in this war.

"When the wounded come home, they are rarely greeted with waving flags and parades. Maimed soldiers are routinely flown from Iraq to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany, where they are stabilized before heading to the U.S..."The wounded are brought back after midnight, making sure the press does not see the planes coming in with the wounded," said Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont on Oct. 16 on the Senate Floor."

Previously, I couldn't even imagine there being that many amputees from Gulf War II. I had no idea. I never heard anything on the news about it. Apparently everyone is concerned with those who died. Apparently those who lost their arms, legs, eyes, noses, mouths, and ears don't matter.

This stinks of propaganda.

I think that as tax-payers we deserve the right to know how much of our money is being spent on making our sons and daughters blind, deaf, armless, and legless.

I think we deserve to know how many single, double, triple, and quadruple amputees were produced as a result of this war.

After all, it's our money. I want to see what it's accomplishing.

Why aren't our soldiers who lost their limbs being honored with parades? Did they not sacrifice something of themselves for their country? I guess they just aren't important. Or maybe the government doesn't want us to know.

I think that's it.

I am so utterly sick and tired of feeling like I'm not getting the whole story, like information that we should all know is being kept from us.

Instead of hearing about the people who died in combat or lost limbs or eyes or ears or noses or mouths in the war, we hear about Jessica Lynch, who did hardly anything but lie there and be rescued.

Jessica Lynch isn't a hero, for crying out loud.

The real heroes are all dead or lying in a hospital breathing through a ******* tube or relearning how to walk with a pair of German-made prosthetic legs.

I live in West Virginia, and the local news was all over Jessica Lynch's return home. I swear to God, I couldn't care less about it. Instead, why don't we see the armless and the legless guys on national television talking about how it felt when the RPG sliced through their leg above the knee, or the guys who are so messed up that they're going to have to be cared for by a team of nurses for the rest of their ******* lives. I sure as hell think they're more important than Jessica Lynch.

I don't think anybody can make an informed, educated decision about whether or not they agree with this war until some facts are presented to us.

[MO]

I agree that many soldiers do not get the appreciation that they deserve, particularly from those on the left. But your comments about Jessica Lynch are just plain offensive.

[Walter]

I'm with MO on this one.

This young woman is physically beaten, broken bones throughout her body, raped by her captors, and survives with a sense of priorities far beyond the capacity of most anyone...and you say "Instead of hearing about the people who died in combat or lost limbs or eyes or ears or noses or mouths in the war, we hear about Jessica Lynch, who did hardly anything but lie there and be rescued."

My God, man. how can you live with yourself?

I guess physical beatings and rape of a woman are not significant. After all, all she did was lie there and be recued.

Ogilvy, I've lost all respect for you because you have no compassion and no decency.

[Ogilvy]

Walter said:

I'm with MO on this one.

This young woman is physically beaten, broken bones throughout her body, raped by her captors, and survives with a sense of priorities far beyond the capacity of most anyone...and you say "Instead of hearing about the people who died in combat or lost limbs or eyes or ears or noses or mouths in the war, we hear about Jessica Lynch, who did hardly anything but lie there and be rescued."

My God, man. how can you live with yourself?

I guess physical beatings and rape of a woman are not significant. After all, all she did was lie there and be recued.

Ogilvy, I've lost all respect for you because you have no compassion and no decency.

She still has her arms, legs, eyes, nose, ears, mouth. She can walk, talk, see, hear, taste, smell. She has everything to live for.

Maybe she did suffer, maybe she is a hero, hell, she probably is, but that's no excuse to focus everything on her and ignore the amputees and those who became blind or deaf as a result of the war. Jessica Lynch is a hero, I take back what I said. But those stupid idiots in the media are cheapening what she went through by portraying her as "THE" hero of the war and forgetting the seriously wounded because they can't stand to acknowledge their creation or because they've got an agenda.




I can't believe you can say that I have no compassion or decency. ALMOST MY ENTIRE POST IS ABOUT COMPASSION AND DECENCY, THE REST IS AGAINST PROPAGANDA AND FOR TRUTH.

You misinterpret my message.

All I want is the facts. I want the statistics. I want the numbers. How many Americans died in June? July? August? September? October? November? How many died today? How many died yesterday? How did they die? How many were wounded? How were they wounded? Do they have their arms, legs, eyes, ears, noses, mouths? How many of their arms, legs, eyes, and ears do they have?

I just want the facts. I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing, "OH, THE WAR IS WRONG, SO MANY PEOPLE ARE DYING AND WOUNDED" from people who don't even know how many people were wounded or died in the war, or "OH, THE WAR IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD, WE ARE HELPING THE IRAQI PEOPLE AND CHAMPIONING DECENCY" from people who also don't know about the wounded or dead.

Quote:
Posted by: MO Posted on: Today at 09:17am
I agree that many soldiers do not get the appreciation that they deserve, particularly from those on the left. But your comments about Jessica Lynch are just plain offensive.

I agree that the left does not always appreciate the soldiers. But the right doesn't always, either. They're about equal.

It seems to me that politics has degenerated into a propagandistic mud-slinging fest, with dumbasses on both sides screaming at the top of their lungs, "OH, LIBERALS ARE TEH OMG EVIL!!!!SOCIALIST!!111!COMMIES!!!1111" and "OH, CONSERVATIVES ARE TEH OMG EVIL!!!!NAZIS!!11!HITLER!!!!1".

Or maybe it's always been like this. I don't know.

It seems that the left and right can't have a single conversation without replying with some standard propaganda garbage.

REASONABLE LIBERAL: HEY, ED, ANYTHING GOOD ON TV TODAY?

UNREASONABLE CONSERVATIVE: WTF OMG NOT MORE LEFT-WING RHETORIC.

REASONABLE LIBERAL: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

UNREASONABLE CONSERVATIVE: WTF OMG NOT MORE LEFT-WING RHETORIC.

and

REASONABLE CONSERVATIVE: MY WIFE CAROL AND I WENT TO THE STORE TODAY. YOU KNOW WHAT THEY HAD APPLES ON SALE TWO FOR ONE DOLLAR!

UNREASONABLE LIBERAL: NOT MORE CONSERVATIVE NAZI RHETORIC!

REASONABLE CONSERVATIVE: HUH?

UNREASONABLE LIBERAL: NOT MORE CONSERVATIVE NAZI RHETORIC!

I'm sick and tired of seeing Ann Coulter's Treason: Liberal Treachery From the Cold War to the War on Terrorism and Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right.

I have no respect for anyone who reads either of these pieces of propagandistic brainwashing garbage. I mean I swear to God anyone who blindly believes everything the right or the left thinks is just crazy. There's not a single man-made system in this world that's not flawed in some fashion. Blind devotion to anything equates to stupidity, simple as that.

I'm a liberal but I don't believe all of the propagandistic trash that other liberals try to spoon-feed me every day in the media. I'm a liberal but if you tell me that we need affirmative action because minorities deserve an advantage then I'll tell you to GO TO HELL.

I go here to post political messages instead of to some liberal site like Democratic Underground because everyone on the Democratic Underground is more or less going to agree with what I say. Jesus H. Christ (not to be confused with Jesus Christ) that's the kind of crap that can brainwash a man.

Mark Twain said it very well when he said, "Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority,
it is time to pause and reflect."

I swear to God that I am going to fight propaganda to the very end. Liberal propaganda, conservative propaganda, I couldn't care less. I hate it all. I hate it with all of my heart and soul. The last thing I will ever do is let myself submit to the trash that the media is spewing out every .5 milliseconds. I'm going to keep a clear head. I'm going to look at the other side. I'm going to examine my beliefs. Look for the facts. Analyze them. Look for the facts before looking into the heart. That is the only way to beat propaganda.

If you reject right-wing propaganda and submit to left-wing propaganda, you've still lost. If you reject left-wing propaganda but submit to right-wing propaganda, you're still lost.

I WILL SUBMIT TO NEITHER. I WILL HAVE MY OWN OPINION. I AM NOT GOING TO LET THE MEDIA DO MY THINKING FOR ME.

IF YOU SUBMIT TO PROPAGANDA, YOU ARE NEITHER A LIBERAL NOR A CONSERVATIVE. YOU ARE A FOOL. A USEFUL FOOL, BECAUSE THERE ARE SURELY MANY PEOPLE WHO WILL SOMEHOW BENEFIT FROM YOUR
BRAINWASHING AND ACCEPTANCE OF PROPAGANDA.

[Walter]

OK Mr. Compassion .

In 2002 3,030,000 Americans were injured on our highways in motor vehicle accidents ranging from a sprained ankle to lost limbs.

In 2002 42,815 Americans were killed on the highways, 968 of those deaths being children under 7 years of age.

You like stats.

How do like those stats?

Any handwringing about the 3 kids per day, 365 days a year, killed on our roads?
Any handwringing about the 117 people per day, 365 days a year, killed on our roads?
Any handwringing about the 8,300 people per day, 365 days a year, injured on our roads?

Source: USDOT 2002 Casualty Statistics

No wartime death or injury; no domestic highway death or injury, is less or more important than any other, despite the politics of the observer.

By trying to politicize death, you are lower than whale defecation on the bottom of the ocean. And YOU say you're compassionate? Try disgusting.

[Ogilvy]

What are you trying to say about me?

How are you saying that I am not compassionate?

Why are you saying that I am not compassionate?

What is your basis for this?

Are you implying that I do not care about the three kids per day who die on our roads? Or the 117 people killed per day who die on our roads? Or the 8,300 people per day who are injured on our roads?

That is not true.

But this topic is not about that. This topic is concerned with propaganda. The problem of our roads belongs in another thread.

I am getting discouraged by the hostility here. I haven't once insulted you. I want to get past the insults. I don't want to be just another idiot screaming "HITLER! STALIN! EVIL!" to everyone I disagree with. I'm not like that. I see people like that every day. I just want to scream out and say, "SHUT THE HELL UP YOU BRAINWASHED IDIOTS CAN'T YOU SEE YOUR OPPONENTS AREN'T FILTH THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS LIKE YOU. WAKE UP FOR CRYING OUT LOUD WAKE UP WAKE UP!" But I can't. There's nothing to do to stop it anyways. What are they going to say? "HITLER! STALIN! EVIL!" That's what. They add a few words inbetween but it's always the same thing. It's all the same. They picked their side of the fence and they're going to defend it no matter what, even if it means portraying the guys on the other side of the fence as inhuman or evil.

Jesus Christ. I know what you're going to say already. If not you, then somebody else is going to step up and do it in your place. It's all the same. Always. Always the same. "HITLER! STALIN! EVIL! DISGUSTING!" It's always the same.

I hate politics. What a bunch of rubbish it is. People get caught up in it and all they see out of their brainwashed eyes is good and evil. Black and white. "HITLER! STALIN! EVIL! DISGUSTING!" It's always the same.

Why do you make all of these assumptions about me?

What the hell kind of a person do you think I am?

[MO]

How does making disparaging remarks about a physically and sexually tortured US POW soldier make a point about propaganda? The truth is, they all deserve all the parades, admiration and respect we can give them. The fact that most aren't getting that does not make her any less deserving.

The left does not want to hear about her because it brings up a blatantly obvious question. Should she have been so close to combat in the first place?

[Ogilvy]

MO said:

How does making disparaging remarks about a physically and sexually tortured US POW soldier make a point about propaganda? The truth is, they all deserve all the parades, admiration and respect we can give them. The fact that most aren't getting that does not make her any less deserving.

The left does not want to hear about her because it brings up a blatantly obvious question. Should she have been so close to combat in the first place?

I've already admitted that I was wrong about Jessica Lynch. You see, unlike all of the other dumbasses that I have to associate with every single freaking day, I will admit when I'm wrong, instead of brainstorming some weak and hopeless argument to defend either a left or a right point of view. If my gut tells me I'm wrong, then by God, I don't worry about "Liberal" or "Conservative". I don't think, like some other people, "OH, THE CONSERVATIVE/LIBERAL GUY SAID SOMETHING CONSERVATIVE/LIBERAL, I BETTER FIND THE APPROPRIATE CONSERVATIVE/LIBERAL THING TO SAY TO COUNTER IT EVEN THOUGH I FEEL THAT MAYBE IN THIS CASE HE'S RIGHT. AFTER ALL THE LAST THING I WOULD EVER DO WOULD BE TO ADMIT THAT ANY OF MY SIDE'S BELIEFS ARE FLAWED. THAT IS SIMPLY UNTHINKABLE. HITLER! STALIN! EVIL! DISGUSTING!"

I'm a firm believer that there's no such thing as left or right anymore. There's only the idiot. Just about everyone is one of them. I wouldn't say that they're to the left or the right field. Hell, they're everywhere. Everywhere.

I'm an idiot, you're an idiot, everybody on this board is an idiot. Everybody in the world is an idiot. We're all just slightly different varieties of idiot. For all my talk about hating propaganda, I bet I've subconsciously/consciously succumbed to it before and probably will again. So have we all. It's unavoidable. Forget what I said about keeping a clear head. When the entire world is out to get you to support their agenda, resistance is impossible.

Sure, I may think I have a clear head now, but how long will that really last? How long before I get swept up by media lies again? Is it really possible to be objective when our society places much more value on uneducated opinions than on undeniable fact, from which all educated opinions are formed?

Yes, I can see it now. Several months from now I will forget I ever said any of this. I'll say, "Oh, Ogilvy, how could you ever really believe that objectivity was something worth striving for? You silly, silly man. HITLER! STALIN! EVIL! DISGUSTING!"

It's a hopeless battle. I suppose I shall fight it nevertheless, as since we have already established that it is hopeless, it doesn't really matter either way.

[MO]

Ogilvy- Thank you for that bit of humility. That is always a redeeming, honorable quality.

[Ogilvy]

I hope that Jessica Lynch is a hero, but I just don't know anymore. Today a friend of mine was reading a newspaper that quoted Jessica as saying that she didn't remember being raped.

When I read the criticism of my original post saying that she was raped, beaten, etc., I thought I had really made a mistake.

But I just don't know anymore.

I don't know what to believe. Everybody is saying something.

I don't believe in words anymore. I don't care what they say. I don't care if they say that there is medical evidence that she was raped. How do I know they're telling the truth? They could be lying. I did a search on the Internet for "Jessica Lynch" and came up with a report saying that she was raped. The entire article was confined to a single sentence. Something like "Recent medical evidence states that Jessica Lynch was raped during her time as a POW during the Iraq war."

One sentence.

Nineteen words.

Can I really believe that?

Then I did a search for "Jessica Lynch propaganda" and found this:

www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1051643375850

It says the exact opposite happened.

Who do I believe?

Both articles are just a collection of words. Nothing more. Just words. Words like the words that I am typing now.

I hate the media. It seems that there is no fact anymore. One guy says something and the other guy says, "No, that's just not right. That's not what happened at all." And there's NO WAY THAT YOU CAN PROVE EITHER OF THEM RIGHT OR WRONG. IT WAS ALL WORDS. IT WAS ALL WITHOUT SUBSTANCE. THE WORST PART IS THAT IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW WHO CARE ABOUT SOLID FACTS ANYMORE, YOU ARE SCREWED.

IF YOU BASE YOUR OPINIONS ON FACT, THEN YOU CAN NOT HAVE AN OPINION IN TODAY'S WORLD.

The only people in this world who know whether or not Jessica Lynch was really raped are the rapists themselves (and they may be dead), and the doctor or whatever who tested for evidence of rape. Jessica Lynch herself said she didn't know whether or not she was raped.

I both love and I hate words. In a world like today where words are the only thing that is important anymore, there is no fact. There is no reason. There is no intelligence.

And yet, on the other side of the coin, in a world where there are few words, like in George Orwell's 1984, your consciousness is limited, and you are still stupid. There still aren't any facts or reason. Without words, you can't express anything. With words, the stupid can hide their stupidity.

It is confusing.

I did a search on "Jessica Lynch Propaganda." Now I'm doing a search for "Jessica Lynch Hero." I can guarantee you that it will be the exact opposite.

But there still won't be any facts.

It's still all words. There's nothing to see with your own eyes that can verify whether or not the article is truth or fiction.

My God.

Oh my God.

Media has destroyed external reality.

Reality only exists in your consciousness.

And who but you can prove what you have seen?

God.

Mass media is propelling us toward a dystopian society. Mass media is supposed to educate. But all it has done is make us complacent and stupid.

Newspapers, magazines, television, books-mass production-has destroyed truth and replaced it with a sea of lies. And there's nothing anyone can do about it.

www.unitedjustice.com/stories/jessica-lynch.html

Here is a very interesting link. It does not say anything about Jessica Lynch being a hero, it is more along the lines of the first link, but very interesting. I still don't know if I can believe it.

Most interesting is that REPORTEDLY Jessica Lynch didn't have time to meet with the Iraqi lawyer that REPORTEDLY saved her. REPORTEDLY it is because she was recovering from the injuries which she REPORTEDLY received in Iraq and because she was REPORTEDLY too busy preparing for her book's release.


Nothing on the first page of my search about "Jessica Lynch Hero" has come up with anything but websites offering prayers and the sort.

www.militaryinfo.com/news_story.cfm?textnewsid=470

This is from a site called Military Info.

Surprisingly, it says that

"The capture and rescue of Private Lynch and five other members of her unit received extensive U.S. media coverage. Some initial accounts of her capture portrayed her as a hero and indicated that she put up stiff resistance and was wounded before being taken prisoner. Military officials have backed off those accounts now and say her gun may have jammed during the firefight with Iraqi soldiers and that most of her injuries came when her vehicle crashed."

I still haven't seen anything saying that she's a hero. I'm still looking.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32824

Still nothing. I'm trying to find the other side's opinion, but that's proving kind of difficult. I'll continue posting good links no matter what side they're from.

Most of these search results have the word hero in quotation marks, as if the issue of whether or not she is a hero is in question.

Here's one that doesn't have quotation.

www.hdonline.com/2003/April/30/LNspota.htm

This is kind of disappointing because it seems to deal with the lawyer who REPORTEDLY saved her.

I want an article that says

a) Jessica Lynch is a hero
b) Jessica Lynch was raped
c) Jessica Lynch was beaten by her captors

I thought this would be easy but I'm getting really annoyed with the Internet right now. It seems that it's difficult to find what you want on the Internet.

I could probably type in, PLEASE GOD DO NOT GIVE ME ANY ARTICLES SAYING THAT JESSICA LYNCH IS A HERO THAT WAS RAPED AND BEATEN BY HER CAPTORS PLEASE OF ALL THINGS DO NOT GIVE ME THAT," and I would get a million results saying that Jessica Lynch is an American hero.

Of course, that's just because the search engines don't pick up the word "Not" but you get the idea.

www.blogcritics.org/archives/2003/04/17/235900.php

Yay. Another "Jessica Lynch is propaganda" article. Still looking for the "Jessica Lynch is an American hero" article to counter all of this.

users.1st.net/mwells/Jessica%20Lynch.htm

Alright, here is definitely a "Jessica Lynch is a Hero" link, but it's not journalistic.

Where the bloody freaking hell is the journalistic articles? Jesus H. Christ.

Okay I found an article from CNN that seemed promising. But it didn't load.

OH MY GOD THIS IS MAKING ME SO ANGRY! I SWEAR TO GOD I AM MAD AT THIS JUNK INTERNET!

Please God just give me ONE *JOURNALISTIC* *PROFESSIONAL* *CONSERVATIVE* VIEW ON JESSICA LYNCH. PLEASE.

Okay.

I'm searching for "Jessica Lynch beaten raped."

If this doesn't bring something up, then I don't know what will.

Except for maybe "Jessica Lynch beaten raped hero."


www.spleenville.com/blog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=3512

Alright here are some conservative views. It's still not journalistic but there seems to be some sort of a discussion going on between people of differing views.

Okay, if I seriously can't find anything, then please may someone here give me some links to the other side.

Okay, I found a site that says "Stars and Stripes-Nuking Liberals Since 2002."


www.mattkennicott.com/index.php?cat=1

My God if that's not a conservative view then something is wrong.

Damn it. It's nothing but rants against liberals. Of course that's to be expected but I also thought it would have something to do with Jessica Lynch.

The only thing that I see about Jessica Lynch is one small paragraph talking about a one million dollar book deal. That alone kind of supports the whole "Jessica Lynch is propaganda" argument.

I'm thinking that the Internet just isn't a very conservative place, and that I'm going to have to go to the old-fashioned newspapers to get conservative journalism.

But I won't give up yet.



Wow. I found something good now.

www.veteransforcommonsense.org/newsArticle.asp?id=1109

It still isn't the "Jessica Lynch is a hero" thing, but it's not just media lies, either. These people are veterans. It's pretty interesting.

Wow. This article is amazing. It seems like a lot of what this guy is saying is what I believe, but he doesn't sound like an angry whiny liberal like all the rest.

It's a different kind of passionate.

I'm definitely not used to this.

I don't think this guy is an idiot. Jesus.

He's not screaming hate. I can't believe it. I don't know where this guy is EXACTLY on the ball field-left or right-but I know for damn sure that whatever he is he's one of the reasonable ones.

My God I'm adding this to my favorites.

I haven't decided FOR SURE yet whether or not Jessica Lynch was indeed hero or propaganda (or both), I'm reviewing what people have to say about it. Or trying at least.

I'm very, very, very, very sorry that I couldn't bring up very many conservative links, but if anyone here can give me some, I'd be very appreciative. Please, I would prefer if it were from at least a partly journalistic approach. And it can't be short. I want something long.

[Ogilvy]

Oh Good Lord that is a long post. Sorry about that, I guess I just didn't really notice how long it was getting.

[Ogilvy]

"President Bush seems to think the people speaking out against this disaster are only a minor nuisance who can safely be ignored. When he decided it was time for our children to start dying for foreign oil, the press said almost 80% of the American people supported the war. But only 33% of the American people vote. So why do we care about what the other 50% say?

The answer is that in this democracy what the voters want, and what the truth is, gets carefully manipulated by the corporate media, the pollsters and the politicians, who all share the same agenda. Your children have become "acceptable losses." Disagreeing with the current regime has become "unpatriotic."

And Jessica Lynch is a "war hero." When the media and the government are done exploiting her, making a movie full of lies and half-truths, she will be forgotten as quickly as the soldiers who died that day.

America is looking less and less like a democracy every day. When 66% of the American people don't bother to vote and American foreign policy is decided by the shameless hucksters of pseudo-patriotism we are truly in a desperate situation.

You see, we don't deserve a democracy; no one does. It has to be earned. Just like medals are supposed to be, in order to have any real value. So all you proud Americans with your bumper stickers and yellow ribbons who don't vote, all you armchair patriots who never fought in a war but want someone else's kid to be sent to Iraq to die, all you shallow consumers of red, white, and blue propaganda, you are the real enemy of democracy. And by looking no further than the six o'clock follies and the Presidents propaganda machine your ignorance is doing more to destroy America than Saddam Hussein ever did."

My God. Thank you God for this sign that there is intelligence in this world. Thank you God. Thank you.

I can't describe how I feel. I can't even understand it. But it's something I've never felt before.

[Ogilvy]

www.msnbc.com/news/990040.asp?cp1=1

I can't believe it. Here you guys were saying that Jessica was a hero, and here she is saying that the military manipulated her.

God damn this makes me sick.

I can't believe I fell for your propaganda. Dammit no more!

I am not going to believe ANYTHING the government tells me anymore. NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. THEY'RE LIARS. ALL POLITICIANS ARE LIARS.

THE GOVERNMENT IS NO MORE OUR FRIEND THAN A STATE APPOINTED PSYCHIATRIST IS THE FRIEND OF HIS SERIAL KILLER CLIENT.

EVERYTHING THEY SAY IS LACED WITH PROPAGANDA AND LIES. I WILL NEVER BELIEVE ANOTHER WORD. NOT ONE. NEVER.

[scummybear]

Hey Ogilvy,
War is hell! I'm still not sure what it is that you require. Sounds like your wanting the government to have mathematical and moral accountability for war in general. How many arms, leg, eyeballs, etc. . . How much money, how many quarts of blood, how many shells, how much gunpowder. . . Why? What propaganda?
It looks to me that the media is more than willing to provide the logistics of what they deem to be an "unjust war" You never really get to see or hear anything positive about what we are doing over there.
Were you guys asleep during Somalia?? What about that?

[Hubcap]

Wow, that was a great article.

And I must add a pearl of wisdom:

History has shown that governments lie to their citizens. Often. So why should anyone believe that the government isn't lying to them now?

As for Jessica Lynch, she's a very nice girl. I've seen her on the talk shows and such. Hero? Not even close. Definately a Pawn, and she knows it. You can see it in her eyes, you can hear it in the way she tells her story. Her frustration at the 'official story' always comes through loud and clear. And still your government lies about it. Pathetic.

Sadder still is the fact that saying Jessica is not really a hero gets reasonable people branded unpatriotic. Much like Bill Maher and his 'brave terrorists' comment. Reasonable remark, traitorous backlash.

Well, this will probably be my only post ever. I just wanted to try to add something to the discussion...you rule Ogilvy!