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Post by USA50 on Aug 26, 2003 14:55:06 GMT -5
The problem with this is that no one is suprised, outraged, or concerned when the daily news reports another bombing, shooting, or attack in either Israel or Palestine. It has become as everyday as going to the store.
Innocent people are dying everyday because neither side will put it to an end. Maybe when the last person is standing in a smoldering pile of rubble, it will be over.
If I lived there (Palestinian or Israeli) I would just say it's time for this to stop.
Our support one way or the other fuels it more than it assuages it or moves to resolution. There was a song in the 60s that said, "our hope is that the Russians love their children as much as we love ours..."
Love the children, hate the power stuggle and the killing.....stop.
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Post by remedios on Aug 26, 2003 18:14:00 GMT -5
I (remedios) wrote this as my last post:
My attitude stems more from my scientific background than my political one. You offered an opinion and I responded to it. I would be more than interested in having an expanded discussion about the Israeli-Palestinian situation and you seemed as though you were about to launch one. But then again, I should have known better. All you're interested in is making comments and then ending the discussion as soon as someone disagrees with you. I started out by asking a very respectful question and you have yet to give a reasonable answer to it. I'll ask it again and see what you do now: Why haven't you included sources from the other side of the situation in your evaluation, or even sources that can claim impartiality? Daniel Pipes hardly qualifies, as he writes for the Jerusalem Post. Why not find an Israeli Jew who sympathizes with the Palestinians, or Arab and American-Israeli scholars who do the same? Even if you end up thinking they are a bunch of commie-loving peaceniks, at least you could actually claim to have done good research. If you don't even bother to conduct a thorough investigation of BOTH sides, condescension is all you deserve and all that you'll get from me, or anyone else who is accustomed to using their head.
I don't know where this came from:
Look pal- You don't know what I have read! I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. DROP IT! In order to have a debate, there must be some starting point in which we agree. -Mo
. . . but it was attached to my last message. I'm assuming Mo wrote it and I'll respond to it.
If I don't know what you read, it's only because you don't tell me, i.e. back up your arguments with sources, point for point. I haven't done this either, but would be more than willing to do so if the result was an exchange between two people of different viewpoints on the Israeli-Palestinian situation that everyone could follow and throughout which citations could be found for different pieces of information.
My response to our differing viewpoints is not to shut down debate/discussion, but to try to teach you, and anyone else that cares to read, something. I, of course, don't do this out of the magniminity of my own heart, but in pursuit of new and reliable sources.
It's not clear to me why you insist on dropping it just because I ask you to back yourself up legitimately.
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Post by MO on Aug 28, 2003 1:13:45 GMT -5
It makes no difference to me where your attitude comes from. I don't wish to discuss anything with anybody who is going to assume that I don't agree with them because I am not "enlightened." Perhaps someone who is more your intellectual equal will wish to pick this up. Until such time, I don't have a dog in this fight. We both have our minds made up. I personally think the blood bath will never end. No point in us getting into one when neither of us will likely be swayed from our deeply held beliefs.
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Post by Allan on Aug 28, 2003 4:46:34 GMT -5
A U.S. citizen cannot rightly/correctly support or condone the U.S. government's criminal (unconstitutional) act of funding Israel with American’s tax money. There are no acceptable excuses for this U.S. government blatant abuse of the Constitution and U.S. Citizens.
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Post by remedios on Aug 28, 2003 18:20:17 GMT -5
I don't wish to discuss anything with anybody who is going to assume that I don't agree with them because I am not "enlightened."
It's unclear to me why you would want to "discuss" something with anyone who assumes you are "enlightened." What would that "discussion" consist of? Mutual admiration for each other's enlightenment and patting each other on the back?
I suggested you check out other sources. You essentially told me to mind my own business because you were satisfied with the sources you read as of now. I suggested again, more forcefully and with less tact, that you were only getting one side of the picture - which was indicated to me by the way you described the Israeli-Palestinian situation. You did not write back explaining your knowledge of the Palestinian version of the events since 1948 and why you reject it. Instead you decided to drop the whole thing, again suggesting that I was out of place. I suggest to you that perhaps, in addition to expanding your research (if it wasn't clear to me before that you haven't read anything pro-Palestinian, it is now), you grow a thicker skin.
We both have our minds made up. I personally think the blood bath will never end. No point in us getting into one when neither of us will likely be swayed from our deeply held beliefs.
Nothing that's happened thus far in this discussion even remotely resembles a bloodbath, even figuratively. And, as I suggested in my last post, the whole point of ANY of the discussions that occur on this board is not only for the people involved to get new information, but also to provide that information to the rest of the web wide world. There was never any thought in my mind of convincing you to change 'deeply held beliefs.' Why your thoughts on Israel and Palestine are deeply held beliefs anyway is beyond me. I may think a lot about the situation and read just about everything that I can find to try to distill a semblance of truth about what's going on in that area of the world, but I don't hold deep the beliefs that I have about the subject for the very reason that I caution you to read other sources: there is so much propaganda and politics surrounding the situation that the people on the ground in Israel and the West Bank don't even REALLY understand what's occurring, let alone people half-way around the world. But anyway, I guess that pretty much brings us full circle.
I'm still interested.
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Post by MO on Aug 29, 2003 1:34:56 GMT -5
"I suggested you check out other sources."
You keep pushing ONE source that I have read before and calling me ignorant! I have posted links to SEVERAL sources and you have not stated what it is you disagree with in any of them.
The fact that your source is set up to "educate Americans about the conflict" makes it more suspect to me than anything with a more obvious slant. I have completed the liberal indoctrination that is public education. Staying informed about current events and reading pro-Palestinian and pro Israel information in order to make up one's own mind is a better course of action.
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Post by remedios on Aug 29, 2003 18:02:58 GMT -5
You keep pushing ONE source that I have read before.
I don't believe that you have, if for no other reason than that you surely would have said so in retort at the time it was originally brought up. Now don't go changing history.
I have posted links to SEVERAL sources and you have not stated what it is you disagree with in any of them.
Yes I have. I have told you that, at the very least, the sources you listed were either a.) unreliable because they were created by interested parties, or b.) of the mass marketed, poor quality that is spoon fed to most Americans.
The fact that your source is set up to "educate Americans about the conflict" makes it more suspect to me than anything with a more obvious slant. I have completed the liberal indoctrination that is public education.
First of all, private schools (from K-12 to graduate school) are far more likely to be liberal than public schools, with the exception of private religious educational institutions. Second of all, something being set up to educated Americans about the conflict is hardly the same thing as a college or university. If it is not self-evident why this is so, no amount of explaining will suffice to convince you.
Staying informed about current events and reading pro-Palestinian and pro Israel information in order to make up one's own mind is a better course of action.
Nevermind that this is exactly what I've said all along, what pro-Palestinian sources do you routinely read?
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Post by MO on Aug 29, 2003 21:47:48 GMT -5
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Post by remedios on Sept 2, 2003 17:35:48 GMT -5
Still not answering the question, huh?
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