Palestinian State

[sapper]

On September 11th, 2001, I watched the Palestinians dance in the streets in celebration of the murders of American civlians. At the same time that there were Americans watching the deaths of their loved ones on cable news channels, long before the official notifications would come, there were Palestinians cheering and jeering, hopping for joy and laughing at the pain of those families.

I have been wishing for the IDF to forcibly expel the Palestinians from Israel and its environs and send them somewhere else (France comes to mind...).

But now I have a different idea. Now I favor nationhood for Palestine. Here's why:

1. Palestinians currently have a status equivalent to a refugee camp. As such, the violent terrormasters there are able to hide behind the "human shields" of their neighbors and also behind the refugee status of their "people" as a whole.

2. Attacks by the IDF on the terror networks in the Palestinian areas have had effects similar to stabbing a cloud. In other words, there is no effect.

3. Israel and the United States have not been given any real opportunity to establish a true representative democracy among the Palestinians or to influence the creation of an effective legal system there. This is because the Palestinians are just a disorganized mob squatting in the hills and slums.

4. Nationhood for Palestine would require the establishment of a real constitution and Israel and the United States could place demands on its content.

5. Nationhood for Palestine would require the establishment of a formal, realistic system of government (not just rule by Arafat and Force 17 thugs). Again, Israel and the United States could influence this by way of requiring their constitution give a blueprint for a representative democracy.

6. If Palestine as a nation harbors or directs terrorism against Israel or against the United States, then war may be declared against them and they may be struck down like any other nation and their leaders, should they survive, be held accountable for their actions.

7. If Palestine does not harbor or direct terrorism, if they do not tolerate the presence of such groups in their society, and if they establish trade and economic partnership with Israel and other middle eastern states, then we can all do the Rodney King thing and get along. The average Palestinian man in the street will have a better life and terrorists will have one less place to call safe haven.

[MO]

Israel has shown great restraint for not moving in with tanks and ridding themselves of the whole lot of them. They don't just want a palestinian state, (or they would have taken the offer) they want ALL of Jerusalem. The real fight is not about statehood, it's about the Temple Mount.

[remedios]

I would suggest you both go and read the entirety of www.fmep.org and all of its links.

And don't come back at me with any crap about the website being biased. Investigation of its source and contributors will revel that it is the least biased source of information on the conflict on the Middle East available.

I'll warn you though, don't go there expecting Israel to look pretty, because she doesn't. In fact, if you read the site in its entirety, I don't see how, as red-blooded, justice-loving Americans, you could come away with any perspective other than that Israel has caused its own problems.

[Sentinel]

MO said:

Israel has shown great restraint for not moving in with tanks and ridding themselves of the whole lot of them. They don't just want a palestinian state, (or they would have taken the offer) they want ALL of Jerusalem. The real fight is not about statehood, it's about the Temple Mount.

Are you a Jew? Why do you support genocide? Why do you care about the Temple mount?

The US should withdraw all aid from Israel until they give up the land they illegally occupy. And, then we should force Israel and destroy their Weapons of Mass Destruction before they slip a nuke to a terrorist which kills hundreds of thousands of Americas and brings America into a war against the whole Arab world. Even if Isreal doesn't give a nuke to a terroist, there's no cir*censored*stance where they can use a nuke that would ever be acceptable.

[MO]

jewishinternetassociation.org/historynutshell/conflict.html

www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html

Twenty Facts about Israel and the Middle East
The world's attention has been focused on the Middle East. We are confronted daily with scenes of carnage and destruction. Can we understand such violence? Yes, but only if we come to the situation with a solid grounding in the facts of the matter—facts that too often are forgotten, if ever they were learned. Below are twenty facts that we think are useful in understanding the current situation, how we arrived here, and how we might eventually arrive at a solution.

ROOTS OF THE CONFLICT



When the United Nations proposed the establishment of two states in the region—one Jewish, one Arab—the Jews accepted the proposal and declared their independence in 1948. The Jewish state constituted only 1/6 of one percent of what was known as "the Arab world." The Arab states, however, rejected the UN plan and since then have waged war against Israel repeatedly, both all-out wars and wars of terrorism and attrition. In 1948, five Arab armies invaded Israel in an effort to eradicate it. Jamal Husseini of the Arab Higher Committee spoke for many in vowing to soak "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood."
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was founded in 1964—three years before Israel controlled the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO’s declared purpose was to eliminate the State of Israel by means of armed struggle. To this day, the Web site of Yasir Arafat’s Palestinian Authority (PA) claims that the entirety of Israel is "occupied" territory.* It is impossible to square this with the PLO and PA assertions to Western audiences that the root of the conflict is Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
The West Bank and Gaza (controlled by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967) came under Israeli control during the Six Day War of 1967 that started when Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran and Arab armies amassed on Israel’s borders to invade and liquidate the state. It is important to note that during their 19-year rule, neither Jordan nor Egypt had made any effort to establish a Palestinian state on those lands. Just before the Arab nations launched their war of aggression against the State of Israel in 1967, Syrian Defense Minister (later President) Hafez Assad stated, "Our forces are now entirely ready . . . to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland . . . the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." On the brink of the 1967 war, Egyptian President Gamal Nassar declared, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel."
Because of their animus against Jews, many leaders of the Palestinian cause have long supported our enemies. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem allied himself with Adolf Hitler during WWII. Yasir Arafat, chairman of the PLO and president of the PA, has repeatedly targeted and killed Americans. In 1973, Arafat ordered the execution of Cleo Noel, the American ambassador to the Sudan. Arafat was very closely aligned with the Soviet Union and other enemies of the United States throughout the Cold War. In 1991, during the Gulf War, Arafat aligned himself with Saddam Hussein, whom he praised as "the defender of the Arab nation, of Muslims, and of free men everywhere."
Israel has, in fact, returned most of the land that it captured during the 1967 war and right after that war offered to return all of it in exchange for peace and normal relations; the offer was rejected. As a result of the 1978 Camp David accords—in which Egypt recognized the right of Israel to exist and normal relations were established between the two countries—Israel returned the Sinai desert, a territory three times the size of Israel and 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war.
In 2000, as part of negotiations for a comprehensive and durable peace, Israel offered to turn over all but the smallest portion of the remaining territories to Yasir Arafat. But Israel was rebuffed when Arafat walked out of Camp David and launched the current intifada.
Yasir Arafat has never been less than clear about his goals—at least not in Arabic. On the very day that he signed the Oslo accords in 1993—in which he promised to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel—he addressed the Palestinian people on Jordanian television and declared that he had taken the first step "in the 1974 plan." This was a thinly-veiled reference to the "phased plan," according to which any territorial gain was acceptable as a means toward the ultimate goal of Israel’s destruction.
The recently deceased Faisal al-Husseini, a leading Palestinian spokesman, made the same point in 2001 when he declared that the West Bank and Gaza represented only "22 percent of Palestine" and that the Oslo process was a "Trojan horse." He explained, "When we are asking all the Palestinian forces and factions to look at the Oslo Agreement and at other agreements as ‘temporary’ procedures, or phased goals, this means that we are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them." The goal, he continued, was "the liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea," i.e., the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea—all of Israel.
To this day, the Fatah wing of the PLO (the "moderate" wing that was founded and is controlled by Arafat himself) has as its official emblem the entire state of Israel covered by two rifles and a hand grenade—another fact that belies the claim that Arafat desires nothing more than the West Bank and Gaza.
While criticism of Israel is not necessarily the same as "anti-Semitism," it must be remembered that the Middle East press is, in fact, rife with anti-Semitism. More than fifteen years ago the eminent scholar Bernard Lewis could point out that "The demonization of Jews [in Arabic literature] goes further than it had ever done in Western literature, with the exception of Germany during the period of Nazi rule." Since then, and through all the years of the "peace process," things have become much worse. Depictions of Jews in Arab and Muslim media are akin to those of Nazi Germany, and medieval blood libels—including claims that Jews use Christian and Muslim blood in preparing their holiday foods—have become prominent and routine. One example is a sermon broadcast on PA television where Sheik Ahmad Halabaya stated, "They [the Jews] must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.’ Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them."
Over three-quarters of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings—an appalling statistic but, in light of the above facts, an unsurprising one.

There are 21 Arab countries in the Middle East and only one Jewish state: Israel, which is also the only democracy in the region.
Israel is the only country in the region that permits citizens of all faiths to worship freely and openly. Twenty percent of Israeli citizens are not Jewish.
While Jews are not permitted to live in many Arab countries, Arabs are granted full citizenship and have the right to vote in Israel. Arabs are also free to become members of the Israeli parliament (the Knesset). In fact, several Arabs have been democratically elected to the Knesset and have been serving there for years. Arabs living in Israel have more rights and are freer than most Arabs living in Arab countries.
Israel is smaller than the state of New Hampshire and is surrounded by nations hostile to her existence. Some peace proposals—including the recent Saudi proposal—demand withdrawal from the entire West Bank, which would leave Israel 9 miles wide at its most vulnerable point.
The oft-cited UN Resolution 242 (passed in the wake of the 1967 war) does not, in fact, require a complete withdrawal from the West Bank.
More- www.jewishworldreview.com/0502/mideast_facts.asp

[Sentinel]

Propaganda doesn't change the fact that Israel is a rogue nation, friend of no one (openly shows contempt for America), in violation of numerous UN resolutions (far more than Iraq ever was in violation of, in spite of numerous US vetos), and brutalizes the people in land it illegally occupies (Israel kills many more innocent civilians).

Israel's neighbors, Jordan, Egypt, and even Syria no longer threaten Israel. Even Iraq has been turned into a puppet state of the US. So, Israel should return the stolen land.

Mo, what does any of that propaganda have to do with the Temple mound? Who but a satanist would want to give God the big middle-finger by rebuilding the Temple?

[MO]

Only a satanist would say such a thing! You obviously don't know a thing about the Temple Mount! Under Jewish control anyone can visit Jew/Christian/ Islamic. I suggest you read some "propoganda" and educate yourself about the issue.
BTW- No, I am not Jewish. Are you a is lame ic terrorist?
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33506

[Sentinel]

What don't I know about the Temple Mount? Haven't you heard that Christ has come and fulfilled the law. He is our sacrifice, no more Temple sacrifices needed. Jesus himself foretold the destruction of the Temple in accordance with God's will.

Those who reject Jesus belong to the Father of Lies, Satan, according to Jesus. Those Talmudists who falsely call their racial supremacist state "Israel" have no godly right to that land.

The state of Isreal is nothing but a man-made imposter, an abomination. It utterly fails to meet the biblical requirements of the restored Israel.

So, now we're down to secular rights. Isrealies illegally occupy the "occupied territories" and they essentually admit that it's not their land. They say they occupy it for security reasons which is not credible as their neighbors no longer threaten Isreal.

I did not say a Palistinian state should be created (even though an official state is far easier to cow than an occupied land), I said that land should be returned to the countries it was taken from when Israel attacked its neighbors. Let them deal with creating a Palistianian state, if that is still desired.

[MO]

You have a very unusual "Christian" perspective on the state of Israel. I support the state of Israel from a Christian and a secular perspective.

Why I don't care about the palestinians.

www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire050902.asp

By the way. Israel took that land in a war that their arab neighbors started. What you are suggesting would be like standing in support of Mexican's coming into Texas, blowing up women and children and claiming it was because we stole their land.

The palestinains have repeatedly turned down statehood, because then their acts of terror could be seen as an act of war.

[Sentinel]

MO said:

Israel took that land in a war that their arab neighbors started.

As a matter of fact, Israel started the '67 war in a full-scale "pre-emptive" attack (incidently, all wars are started with "pre-emptive" attacks). They were more ready for war than the Arabs. But, this is irrelevant.

Isreal creates the violence by their tit-for-tat murder with the Palistianians whom the keep in a condition as refugees. Israel won't assimilate the territory nor will they allow another real government to rule the territory (no past offer by Israel to the Palistinians have included real independence from Israel).

Your analogy with Mexicans in Texas is absurd. The US never invaded Mexico and took Mexican land. But, even if the Mexicans believe they have a right to the land (and, many of them do) they need not fight as we are freely giving the south western US to Mexico and our goverment treats Hispanics better than natives.

In either case, the US and Isreal could protect their citizens with real border control. Only now has Israel decided to put of a fence.

BTW, I don't care about the Palistinians or the so-called Jews (The Isreali state religion is Atheism and Talmudism, not biblical Judaism. And, I doubt any of them can trace their lineage to Israel, not that being a Jew makes them any less evil for rejecting Christ). But, I do care that those so-called Jews are costing our country many billions of dollars every year and the distraction of biblically ignorant conservatives by the state of Israel leaves a lot of room for liberals to run around here destroying America.

[MO]

Liberals are running around destrying America and supporting terrorists, including the palestinians. The palestinians will not take statehood because they want it ALL! Most want the complete destruction of Israel.
BTW- The palestinians have rejected Christ, too. What is that all about?

NOW we know they LIED about Jenin!

TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Palestinians confirm
no Jenin 'massacre'
Study shows 52 total casualties, most were 'armed combatants'

MORE_
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33562

[Sentinel]

MO said:

Liberals are running around destrying America and supporting terrorists, including the palestinians. The palestinians will not take statehood because they want it ALL! Most want the complete destruction of Israel.
BTW- The palestinians have rejected Christ, too. What is that all about?

I don't defend the Palestinians. They're a bunch of H3ll-bound idiots (is that clear enough?). They would have destroyed Israel by now if instead of suicide attacks, they marched down the streets demanding equal rights.

Conversly, Israel could have destroyed the Palistinian's will to resist if instead of those tit-for-tat murders they gave the Palistinians free public schools, welfare, and a bureaucratic government.

But, both sides just like violence.

I'm not concerned with either side (is that clear enough). I'm concerned with America's stupidity in this which is costing me money, freedom, and a decent community to live in.

[dollygal]

At the risk of sounding Anti-Semitic (which means BOTH Arabs and Jews by the way) did anybody know that after 9/11 we expelled 30 Jewish students from the country for hacking into our State Department Computers?
Somebody interviewed Colon Powell but he wouldn't say anything. Are we all so afraid of being called names for questioning their actions?
There was a blurb on Fox and then it was shut down and nothing was ever said. Also I've read where there were offices in the State Department which had been bugged and they found that the Telephone Company being used was infiltrated by the Mousaad.

Israel has been spying on us for years and when I confronted my Jewish friends their excuse was "yes we know but we are friends." Some friends.

[Sentinel]

As long as we're risking sounding anti-semetic, a message sent through an Isreal- and New York-based instant messenger service warned of the 9-11 attack two hours before it happened. To a pro-Isreali neocon that would have been a smoking gun if instead of Israelis it were Iraqis or other Arabs.

Incidently, in spite of of New York's ultra-high Jewish population (probably more Jewish the higher you go in the WTC), not a single Jewish employee was killed in the WTC! There were several Jews killed on the airplanes and one jewish visiter to the WTC. (Bush lied claiming a hundred-something jews were killed in the WTC attack).

I find it totally credible that Israeli intelligence had at least a clue but didn't want to warn America because they were thinking that if they let it happen then the US would go berserk attacking Arab countries (the Bush administration has been very accommodating).

www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/13820.html

[MO]

That makes terrorists very happy and they welcome your support. Now go put on your tin foil hats!