Praise HIM for HE is GREAT

[Angmar]

It's all well and good either way, but here there's an inherent problem--you can find support for toleration towards other religions in the Qur'an, just as you can find instructions for killing members of other religions off. But even if 10% of moslems take the latter interpretation, you immediately have an interesting problem--1 out of 10 moslems is willing to demolish a building, as he considers it a good work. This alone makes the religion difficult to cope with.

[RusJewAth]

Personally I think it will take 2 bombs to change all of followers of Quar'an minds and to make them peaceful and USloving. Remember the japanese how unrelenting and unforgiving they were during ww2. How they suicided much like the islamic peoples do today. I propose nuking meccah and medina would put islam much into line. Sure the begining would be condemned but all you would have to say is If you do not stop we will eradicate all of you and seal it with 2 nukings this would make them think a 1000 times before doing anything would you risk vengance knowing complete anihilation awaiteth or would u risk for a hypothetical world. Most would fall into line and be good citizens of the world community. They need to experience a few terrorist acts on their own skin.

[MO]

Nuking is not the solution. Among the terrorists are thousands of innocents who live in squalor amongst rich leaders in countries rich in natural resources. These people don't have basic needs much less freedom of religion or the ability to help themselves. Ann Coulter was almost right when she flippantly said, "we need to invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." I would add that I just believe they should be given the right to choose. The religion is not the problem. Islamic governments are the problem. The places where the KORAN is the law of the land.


QUOTES FROM THE KORAN...

"now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)"

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)


"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:1

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 8

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

[rightwingconspiritor]

I actually agreed with the Muslims on their stance on Israel before 9/11. I don't understand why we strech our necks out for an unthankful and sometimes hostile (remember the Liberty) country. But after we were attacked we needed to go on an all out assult; not free the Iraqi people. Perhaps not nuke but heavely bomb certain Islamic religous sites such as Mecca. The only thing fundamentalists reaspond to is fear. But in true US fasion you hurt us, we help you.

[Ted]

Bah. Mecca's an ugly place anyway. Use thermonuclear weapons though, radiation's nasty stuff. ;D

[RussianJewishAth]

Yes u are right ted thermonuclear no need for radiation and i said meccah and medina two things so they dont think its an accedent. Just like hiroshima and nagasaki.

Nice quoting mo I actually read them. Damn forgot the word for non-muslims it also means scum or something to that degree. Was one of the reasons the golden horde lost control over Russia after it convert to islam.
The nicest thing i read was translation of a book written by this arabic scholar its called "The fall of khwarzam" there was a passage there how the genghis khan dealt with a sect of muslims that used terrorism against him. Basicly they attacked his officials and merchants. The entire sect was anihilated men women and children all killed off and the main religious leader was quartered.

[MO]

Great article about the real history of the Crusades.
www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-madden110201.shtml

[Ogilvy]

Guest-RusJewAth said:

Personally I think it will take 2 bombs to change all of followers of Quar'an minds and to make them peaceful and USloving. Remember the japanese how unrelenting and unforgiving they were during ww2. How they suicided much like the islamic peoples do today. I propose nuking meccah and medina would put islam much into line. Sure the begining would be condemned but all you would have to say is If you do not stop we will eradicate all of you and seal it with 2 nukings this would make them think a 1000 times before doing anything would you risk vengance knowing complete anihilation awaiteth or would u risk for a hypothetical world. Most would fall into line and be good citizens of the world community. They need to experience a few terrorist acts on their own skin.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The only reason the Japanese gave up was because their government told them to, and the Emperor declared that he was not a deity. Otherwise it would've taken a lot more than two atomic bombs to bring them down.

If we bombed the Islamic holy cities the fundamentalists would just fly fifty planes into fifty more buildings. The bloodshed would never cease.

[Ogilvy]

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE POST THAT MO MADE QUOTING SOME VERSES IN THE QUR'AN. I HAD TO GET RID OF THE QUOTE BECAUSE OTHERWISE MY POST IS TOO LONG.

The Qur'an does not tell Muslims to forcibly convert others. It says that there must be "No compulsion in religion."

You have Verse 2:190 completely wrong. It says

"And fight in the cause of Allah those who fight and persecute you, but commit no aggression. Surely, Allah does not love the aggressors..

It is the following verse that says

"And slay them when and where you get the better of them, in disciplinary way, and turn them out whence they have turned you out."

"Them" is clearly the "aggressors." It is not the idolators as you said. Muslims are only permitted to fight people who are aggressive against them.

Verse 2:192-193 says

"But if they desist (from aggression) then, behold, Allah is indeed the Great Protector, Ever Merciful.

"And fight them until persecution is no more and religion is (freely professed) for Allah. But if they desist (from hostilities) then (remember) there is no punishment except against the unjust (who still persist in persecution)."

As for marrying captives of war:

"And those of you who have not the means to marry free believing women (may marry) such of your believing bonds women as your right hands own (by being captives in war). Allah knows very well (the state of) your faith, you are all (sprung) one from another, so marry them with the permission of their guardians and give them their dowers with equity, they being properly married, not (committing fornication), to pursue their lust nor taking secret paramours. And if after they are married they commit adultery they incur (the punishment of fifty strips which is) half of that (punishment prescribed) for free women. This (permission to marry a bonds woman) is for him among you who fears (that otherwise he will fall into) sin. But it is better for you to exercise restraint. Allah is, indeed, Great Protector, Ever Merciful.

So while we do find evidence of captivity in the Qur'an, it is slightly less horrible than slavery in other cultures. And in fact the Qur'an does not seem to condone slavery, saying that it is a good deed to free a slave in verse 24:33

"(There is another commandment,) as for those of your bondsmen (or women) as ask for a written contract (of freedom for themselves on payment of ransom), write this (deed of manumission for them) provided you find good capabilities in them and give them out of ALlah's wealth which He has given you."

Then, verse 47:4, it says again

"So (believers! Now that you know the will of your Lord) when you meet in (regular) battle those who disbelieve strike off their heads. After you have bound them fast in fetters (as prisoners of war), then, afterwards, (release them, a must), either by way of grace or by (accepting) ransom. (This is the law,), until war lays down its weapons (and it is over). Blah blah blah blah blah...blah blah..blah...next verse.

While the beginning of the verse seems gruesome, it really isn't. It's just a description of what happens in any war.

Then later it says that you should release any slaves you take. Yay.

Verse 4:126 is not at all what you say it is. You seem to have misquoted here. What you're talking about comes later in verse 4:129:

"It is not within your power (as far as natural feelings of love and devotion are concerned,) to maintain perfect balance between wives (and to treat them with equal justice) even though you be ever so eager; but do not incline with a total inclination (towards one so that you completely sever your relations with the other) so as to leave her like some thing suspended (as virtually deserted). And if you keep things right and guard against evil, then surely Allah is Great Protector, Ever Merciful."

Again, the Qur'an does not say to kill all the disbelievers. It takes a somewhat passive stance towards them. Basically, Mohammed is the Warner to the disbelievers, and if they persist in their disbelief, then hey, tough luck to them. It doesn't say that Muslims should really do anything about their disbelief. It's their choice. Several times the Qur'an says that Allah could have made everyone submit to Islam by force, but he wanted to give men the choice.

My translation (by Nooruddin) does use the word
"friends" in verses 3:118-19. It uses the word "allies" which has a different connotation.

A few verses of the Qur'an speak of being friends with non-Muslims. It seems to be acceptable, only if they start talking about something that is blasphemous to Islam, the Muslim is obligated to remain silent until the conversation moves to other topics.

And then I could comment on some of the other verses, but I'm really very lazy and I have to do some other stuff now. Maybe later.

[MO]

There are many translations of the Qur'an that pretty it up for American consumption. There are differences between the King James and New International Bibles, too.

Do you speak Arabic well enough to translate?

[Ted]

Lol, good point right there. There are different interpretations of the koran, of course--but even if a handful rigorously uphold the "kill non-moslems" version, other religious groups are in a very nasty position. And they do.

[Ian]

If we bombed the Islamic holy cities the fundamentalists would just fly fifty planes into fifty more buildings. The bloodshed would never cease.

We're bombing Muslims everyday in Iraq (although I personally don't believe we're doing enough). So why aren't those scumbags flying planes into buildings now?
Simple, because Muslims are not as organized or intelligent as the United States.

[Ted1]

Ummm. . .

I think someone's inferiority complex is interfering with an objective analysis. The US wasn't organized enough to get numerous religious fanatics past Iraq's border and then take piloting courses there. It's open to interpretation, but I think it's safe to assume that an Islamic radical is fairly bright.

[Ogilvy]

MO said:

There are many translations of the Qur'an that pretty it up for American consumption. There are differences between the King James and New International Bibles, too.

Do you speak Arabic well enough to translate?

I placed an order on Amazon.com for several books that teach Arabic on February 20, and as of right now they haven't arrived yet...though they should have arrived several days ago, really.

I don't speak Arabic right now, but I intend to learn it, and then I'm going to read the Qur'an in the original Arabic. I'm reading all of the religious books of the world right now. The Qur'an, the Holy Bible (KJV), and the Dhammapada all rest one on top of the other on my nightstand.

I intend to get another translation or two of the Qur'an...possibly the Yusuf Ali translation or the Pickthall translation. I won't get any other translations of the Holy Bible, though, because I like the thees and thous of the King James Version. I really could care less about the other versions.

Don't see the point in getting another Dhammapada, so I'll just move on to some other Buddhist scriptures.

I still need to get the Rig Veda and Upanishads. I have the Bhagavid-Gita.

Now, if only I could find a copy of the Avesta...those are VERY hard to find.

[Ogilvy]

Guest-Ian said:

We're bombing Muslims everyday in Iraq (although I personally don't believe we're doing enough). So why aren't those scumbags flying planes into buildings now?
Simple, because Muslims are not as organized or intelligent as the United States.

Well, because quite simply we haven't bombed any of their HOLY cities. If we did that they would go nuts.