Praise HIM for HE is GREAT

[spramp]

Guest-AgentOrang said:

MO,

In response to your query re. Peace........try the USA on for size. The most violent, crime ridden country on earth is our beloved USA.

well then why don't you move elsewhere? if this country is so distasteful to you why would you stay? i hear there is a quaint ba'ath house for rent in Tikrit.

[Hubcap]

In all fairness, crime results for the US are skewed as a result of Draconian drug laws. Yes, the US has the highest rate of incarceration in the free world. And blatant racism continues to be problematic:

www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/issinfo/cr-comp.htm

This one's from (Zaiire?), and though the numbers are higher, they're only CRIMES commited, not incarceration rates...should't have put this one in, still looking for world stats...
www.iss.co.za/Pubs/CRIMEINDEX/00VOL4NO4/CJM.html

good stats site...why can't i find the freakin' world stats??
oprtest.princeton.edu/popindex/search/index.html

As I was typing. Drug laws ensure prison overcrowding (bring on the privatized, for-profit prisons), and mean more non-violent crimes result in incarceration. So when crime rates and incarceration rates are quoted, they hide the real issue. The blatant racism of police. How can 20% of a population represent 80% + of the prison populaton without 'racial profiling'? The numbers just don't bear scrutiny, statistically. Mathematically. Undoubtedly.

Lets say that 100 motorists are stopped for speeding on a major highway in Minnesota. In a country with 20% black people, I would expect 20 or so blacks to be stopped, wouldn't I? Sure, it might go up to 30 or even 35 black people stopped, but a random sample of citizens, all other factors being equal, should conclude that 20% of your citizens are black. It's the population, dammit. Even if you don't accept that, consider this:

Of 100 motorists stopped, 60 are black. In a given population, a certain percentage of citizens will have something to hide, say 10% of those stopped. And so the data should show (if this was the extent of racial profiling) that of those 60 black motorists, 6 were charged. And of the 40 white motorists stopped, we should also expect 10% of them to be charged with something. And thus 10 people get a charge/criminal record (although much more likely for blacks, lets face reality), and statistics then prove that 20% of your population commits 60% of your crime in that area. Right? And 80% of the population commits 40% of the crime, right? Ridiculous, and if you believe it, I've got a bridge to sell you. This is statistics, people, the sample was badly damaged in the first place. As soon as there's WAY more blacks in the sample (those pulled over) than there are in the general/local population, repercussions are apparent everywhere. All of a sudden, the data is skewed so severely that public officials start asserting that skin colour is a relevent indicator of a persons predisposition towards crime. The data seems to support that blacks commit more crimes, right? Wrong....so very, very, heartbreakingly wrong. But for an introductory course in statistics, even the critic would be forced to concede such racist rhetoric as nonsense. And for those that would tell me it's not that simple...yes it is. Too long has the government patronized its citizens, and tried to brush off criticism with "it's more complex than that, don't you worry, we'll do all the thinking for you, you're wrong even though we can't at this time give you a reason why you're wrong. Just remember that you're the naive one and that you have no appreciation for the complexities of what you're discussing". Err, sorry, got carried away with putting words in the government's mouth...

But if you understand the crux of my statistical argument, you'll see it as the truth.

The amount of hypocrisy and finger-pointing and denial of this very real and pressing problem only seeks to hide the real issues. And the public eats it up.

[Yukon]

HUBCAP,

Just because dogs piss on you doesnt make you a big wheel so fuck off.

[Remedios]

But if you understand the crux of my statistical argument, you'll see it as the truth.


First of all, your argument has nothing to do with statistics. It's a simple math problem.

Second of all, I'm about as far left as you can get, but even I don't swallow that crap about most cops being racist. Maybe in some back-water, cajun-country plantation town, but most of them? I think not. And, leftie or not, you'd have to be a fool to think that blacks don't commit more of the kinds of crimes that land a person in jail for LONG PERIODS OF TIME. They do. Do you know why? Because they're predominantly poor, uneducated and desperate. I'd be willing to bet that if the same percentage of white people lived under ghetto conditions, the white prison population would rise until it was not unlike the black one.

To argue that general and prison populations should be directly proportional along race lines is to ignore the factors that contribute to crime AND, mind you, to pretend that the poverty that many blacks live in has no impact on their lives or decision-making processes. Sounds like an argument to stop affirmative action in education and hiring, forget about inner-city schools, and completely cut government housing subsidies.

Is that what you really meant?

[Angmar]

A rude awakening for you pagans out there who are under the misconception that Islam is peaceful:

1.Islam is a works-based faith--the more good works one does, the closer to allah one is.

2.In the Qur'an, any non-moslem is defined as an "enemy of allah".

3.A good work is a variety of things, including killing an "enemy of allah".

4.Hence, the more believers a pagan kills, the better he thinks he's doing.

How peaceful.

[Angmar]

And yes, black populations have very high crime rates, particularly in the ghetto. But then, there are white ghettos in which the population and living conditions are identical, yet have lower crime rates. Care to explain?

[hubcap]

No, this has everything to do with statistics. And the fact that crime rates are badly damaged statistics in the first place, damaged by bias... Take a statistics course or four before telling me I don't know stats...

Most cops being racist? No, but the status quo seems to have a distinct bias, skewing the whole lot of them towards racism. Racist relativism, as it were. Statistics, as it were.

As for Yukon, what in the hell do you mean? That doesn't even make any sense, you uneducated buffoon. I can call people names, too

As for ghetto crime rates:
the perception is that black ghettos have more crime. Result? More policing in black ghettos. Result? More arrests in black ghettos. Result? A skewed crime rate in the black ghettos. Result? The public demands even more policing in the black ghettos. A vicious cycle. So now the black ghettos have one police officer per 100 residents, whereas the white ghettos have one police officer per 500 residents. And thus a corresponding increase in arrests/crime rate in the black ghettos.

Basically, the myth of the violent/crime-prone blacks prompts more policing of blacks, which artificially jacks up the apparent black crime-rate. Much like the Canada-US border after 9-11. Marijuana siezures went up by about 800%. And the conservatives here would have us believe that this means trafficking is up...reality shows that scrutiny of vehicles is the real reason for the increase.

So black populations have the policing of the post-9-11 border, while white populations have the policing of pre-9-11 border. Which police net will catch more criminals?

How about this for a social experiment - increase patrols in white neighborhoods by 800%, and decrease patrols in black neighborhoods by 87.5%. Now which community will show the higher crime rate? Guaranteed, the one with the most police presence. In order to be reflected in the crime rate, crimes have to observed/measured. ie, people have to be charged.

Anyway, I'm sure none of you can see the truth in this, very few people understand the STATISTICS involved, much less a bunch of right-wing sycophants who base their arguments on think-tanks funded by their fuhrer (GWB), instead of common sense or science.

Flame away, sheep.

[MO]

Crime statistics can be off, hubcap. For example, if you can cite an example where more people in one area are given the opportunity to plea bargain, and urban blacks are not, that's going to impact the statistics. The only crime statistics that are hard to hide are the murders. It's hard to hide bodies. I live in a rural/suburban low crime area, but the nearest city to me has one of the highest crime and murder rates in the country. I reject the notion that it's due to more police! There are open air drug markets all over down town. Where I live, someone selling drugs on the street corner would be picked up inside of ten minutes.

It sounds like your heart is in the right place, but you should stop and think about how you pick your battles! The truth is, the white and black residents in ghetto neighborhoods do not get their constitutional right to equal protection under the law. I believe that a black woman living in a poor neighborhood should be as safe as I am to take a night class or run to the store after dark. The truth is, she's not! There are several reasons for that. One of them is the attitude that you are displaying.

[hubcap]

ummm, what?

All I'm doing is trying to educate those who would make the blanket statement "black people are criminals", dismissing the statistical reasons for the higher crime rate out of hand.

It's just those statistical reasons that lead to a seemingly higher crime rate among blacks, and is the evidence that equal protection under the law is a wistful dream.

Now, if the drug dealer would be arrested inside of ten minutes in the city near you (D.C. ?), that tells me the police are concentrating their efforts downtown. But the crime rate in your suburban area is the MEASURED crime rate, not the actual crime rate. This is what I'm saying - the MEASURED crime rate will be lower in an area of lower police presence than the MEASURED crime rate in areas of greater police presence. Which gives no information as to the ACTUAL crime rates of the two areas. Statistics would state that the ACTUAL crime rates should be similar for similar populations. While the drug dealer on the corner may get arrested in no time, the suburban drug dealers have the advantage of privilege to protect them. Those plea bargains you speak of? Who has a better chance at a plea bargain, the urban or suburban drug dealer? So which area will have a lower (measured) crime rate? The suburbanites, of course.

Is this making sense to anyone yet?

[MO]

No one has made such a blanket statement.

Like I said, you're right that statistics are not always an accurate picture of reality but it's hard to hide bodies.

[Angmar]

No one's in a position to be irritated more about the policing in suburbia than those who live there. E.G., there are dozens upon dozens of speed traps in suburbia--and why? Because it's the only area where people can or feel like paying speeding tickets. Basically, middle and upper class suburbia, where the vast majority of tax money originates, is being used as a money raiser--Tax payers pay taxes to pay for police to pay for the police to give them tickets. Oh yes, that's fair.

[hubcap]

Well done Angmar, you almost made a good point!

While it's true that police tend to ticket drivers to make money to hire cops to ticket drivers to make money to hire cops...etc...there's something to be said for slowing the f**k down while driving through kid-infested streets - it's probably better for all. Poor middle and upper class people, always getting picked on.

But the drug war in your country has created a massive 'tag and release' program, mostly aimed at the lower class, with blacks bearing the brunt of the aggression. 20% of your population responsible for 80% of the prison population? 20% of americans causing 80% of crime? B*llsh*t!

What's my point? That anyone who says racial profiling doesn't exist isn't paying attention. That anyone who would point to statistics (which are biased by racial profiling to begin with) and say 'perhaps they should stop commiting crimes' when confronted with these facts is pulling the old ostrich trick. That your supposed 'free and equal' country only exists for the priveleged.

[rightwingconspiritor]

Hubcap, YOU almost made a good point. Wait no you didn't. Let me break it down for you.
#1 Which area has more violent crime? A) Urban Areas B) Middle Class, Upper Class areas. Answer: A!
#2 Which areas have a bigger black population? A) Urban Areas. B) Middle Class, Upper Class areas. Answer: A!
If you answered both the questions correctly then you should understand why 20% of the population accounts for 80% of the prison population. Not due to racial profiling, but rather to the cold hard facts that you "freedom-loving, patriotic" Liberals hold so dear.

[Walter]

Here in LA, the folks in South Central say that their lives are miserable because of gangs, drug dealers and associated violence. The white establishment just doesn't care.

The Police Chief sends in more cops. Arrests go up, crime and violence go down.

On Hannity and Colmes, Jonnie Cochran protests the added police as being a discriminatory effort by racist cops (most of whom are black) to trap blacks. "We have enough African-Americans in jail already." He says "this racial profiling has to stop."

This is a true story.

No further comment needed.

[Ogilvy]

Angmar said:

A rude awakening for you pagans out there who are under the misconception that Islam is peaceful:

1.Islam is a works-based faith--the more good works one does, the closer to allah one is.

2.In the Qur'an, any non-moslem is defined as an "enemy of allah".

3.A good work is a variety of things, including killing an "enemy of allah".

4.Hence, the more believers a pagan kills, the better he thinks he's doing.

How peaceful.

Wrong.

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers."---Quran 60:8