How it all began

[midcan5]

Mo, Cobb, Ian,

Have any of you lost a son in war?

Cindy Sheehan is doing what brave Americans do, she is protesting the policies of an administration ruled by fools and power hungry fools. Both 'fools' as their handling of Iraq exemplifies. No argument there from any rational person.

Ann Coulter is a charlatan whose only shtick is criticizing other Americans. Again that is obvious as she has done nothing for this country remotely good. Show me something if you can.

Saying someone who disagrees is pro terrorist is the sort of rhetorical idiocy that clouds the issue but does not help anyone understand terrorism. Terrorism is not a simple thing as the 'right' in its need for simple explanations desires. And Bush has contributed by his poor judgment in Iraq and Afghanistan to terrorism. It is he who is playing into the hands of terrorists not those who recognize the ineptness of his policy.

It isn't necessary that everyone be afraid it is only necessary that enough be afraid so that everyone questions their actions. The nation because of 911 and other terrorism was scared and instead of an FDR at the helm who realized we are a great nation when faced with conflict we had an incompetent from Texas. That much is clear to the majority of Americans today.

[MO]

LOL More of the same dishonest attempts that Ann outlined and profiled in her book.

Since your message is wrong and can't stand up to dissent, you hold up people who you claim can't be challenged to voice it. You expressed the way liberals feel about dissent of their message earlier in the thread when you said, "STFU." She's welcome to her grief, and she's welcome to any political beliefs she holds. What she is not welcome to do is express them in the public eye and expect to not be challenged. Having a dead son does not make her a foreign policy expert. Besides, she was to the left of Lenin before her son joined the military and then reenlisted to get away from his communist mother. She is free to have pictures taken of her while hugging Chavez and talking about what a great guy he is. She can bump ugly all night with him, for all I care. What she can't do, and you can't do, is demand that no one say anything about it because her son died. Plenty of people have lost sons and daughters in this war who are maintaining some class and dignity, no matter how they feel about the necessity of the war or how it was carried out.

Some people are intelligent enough to realize that no matter how you feel about the war, a platform with a global audience is not the place for it. Her boy's contemporaries are still there. For you to suggest no one counter her message when she is coddling communist dictators is irresponsible.

That much is clear to the majority of Americans today.

The majority of Americans reelected Bush two years ago when people like you and your polls were saying the same thing.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

Mo, Cobb, Ian,

Have any of you lost a son in war?

Cindy Sheehan is doing what brave Americans do, she is protesting the policies of an administration ruled by fools and power hungry fools.

By throwing her vacuous support behind a separate power hungry fool.

The nation because of 911 and other terrorism was scared and instead of an FDR at the helm who realized we are a great nation when faced with conflict we had an incompetent from Texas. That much is clear to the majority of Americans today.

And of course FDR would have never allowed an attack on this country merely for a reason to enter into a war...

BTW, nice open-minded liberal "Texas" comment.

All I can say is I'd be booking Cindy on every TV/Radio talk show I could find if I was her son Andy. Once Cindy's 15 minutes fully fade I wouldn't be surprised to find him end up under the wheels of the presidential motorcade. Son's deaths are like Pringles for liberals. Once they pop they can't stop.

[midcan5]

You all are forgetting how Vietnam ended. It ended because people in the states just like Cindy Sheehan spoke up. Murtha is another brave American not afraid to counter the jingoism of the right wing nationalists. So while it may be a broken record, let's all hope there are many more, and eventually just like Nam we realize the mistakes of our leaders and the empty thinking and fear that got us there.

Ann has ideas? You'll need to show me some before I buy that line?

Actually Dubya isn't from Texas is he, sorry for that Texas, but since you elected him governor, the fool still came from there and since you elected him....

Hey guys I think liberals need to use some the right's rhetorical name calling. You can see lots of evidence on this site that reason is lacking among those like Coulter who are only about criticizing other Americans. Maybe we can eventually have a draw here, and then maybe, just maybe, voters will pay a little attention to the issues. maybe....


"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering

[Ian]

Nam? So you're suggesting we run out of Iraq with our tails between our legs and allow the deaths of 3 million Kurds because some scuzzy old hippies say we should? They didn't know what they were talking about then and they don't know what they're talking about now.

As far as John Murtha goes, that guy would pimp his mother to a biker gang if he thought it would win him votes. How do you think a pro-troop stance would help that old rumdum rockhead win his coveted House Majority Leader position?

I'm totally opposed to our current strategy in Iraq, but (and this might come as a shock to you liberals) surrender is not always the best option.

[midcan5]

Ian, you are too young and too immature to sum up Murtha's accomplishments in those terms. That shows a real lack of insight on your part. You can pick on me all you like but to call into question a genuine American hero shows more about you than John. Pennsylvania and America are proud of his work and his service to this country.

Militarily we have already won in Iraq. Our military is the finest there is and they do us all honor, but to place them in a situation where their role is no longer war but building a nation out of sectarian violence is wrong. Why do we need to fight for a state that will never be a democracy but will become a religious nation similar to Iran. If you feel we should be there today and this is about American security you need to enlist and help them form their nation. See if Ann Bolter will join you.

Show respect for another's religion get rid of your icon. It says more about you than you think.


"In his 37 years in the military, John Murtha won two Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star with a Combat "V," and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. As a Democratic congressman from Pennsylvania for the past 31 years, he has been a fierce hawk, championing conflicts in Central America and the Persian Gulf."

[MO]

"You all are forgetting how Vietnam ended."

I'm not. It was a victory for our enemies, in part because of our enemies at home. Not surprised you're celebrating it, though.

There you go again! Murtha is not off limits! More of the same dishonest, un-American tactic that Coulter talks about in her book! Ian didn't say a word about Murtha's service record. For you to hold him up as infallible politically because he served honorably is more of the same garbage. There are more vets in congress on the Republican side. And where was this total respect and infallibility for wounded vets when the Democrats rejected two war hero nominees in the 1992 and 1996 Presidential elections? Hypocrites!

[midcan5]

You support a loud mouth hack but criticize a veteran for being an American? For you that is expected, but for most, respect for an American who served their country is an honor regardless of where they stand politically on certain issues. That is all part of our pluralism and diversity, something right wing conservatives do not respect. And you can repeat your Ann mantra ad infinitum doesn't change a thing.

[MO]

Once again, respect for his service does not have to include respect for him on a personal level or respect for his political views.

Liberals don't respect military heroes, because they had the chance to vote for two different ones in 2002 and 2006 and didn't. They voted for a draft dodger, instead.

I don't criticize him for being an American. I criticize him for being a traitor and an empty suit politician. Murtha a war hero? Yes, but so was Benedict Arnold.

[Ian]

MO, you took the Benedict Arnold reference right out of my mouth. Props.

Ian, you are too young and too immature to sum up Murtha's accomplishments in those terms. That shows a real lack of insight on your part. You can pick on me all you like but to call into question a genuine American hero shows more about you than John. Pennsylvania and America are proud of his work and his service to this country.

I don’t remember such reverence given to Ollie North during the Iran-Contra affair. Please, be intellectually honest for once and write a paragraph talking about how Oliver North is beyond question because he has a Silver and Bronze Star as well as a Purple Heart, making him a greater hero than Murtha. Please, take your eye away from the keyhole and look at the big picture.

Militarily we have already won in Iraq. Our military is the finest there is and they do us all honor, but to place them in a situation where their role is no longer war but building a nation out of sectarian violence is wrong. Why do we need to fight for a state that will never be a democracy but will become a religious nation similar to Iran. If you feel we should be there today and this is about American security you need to enlist and help them form their nation.

What have I said in the past? If it was up to me I’d exterminate all Middle East Arabs. Short of that I would beat them into submission and keep very tight control of the region in the form of dictatorships run or controlled by the US. Arabs, like all savages, respond to violence. The fact that we’ve pussy-footed around there and pussy-footed around the entire subject since 9/11 is the reason we have “allies” like Musharraf coming out and claiming no allegiance to the “cause” and liberals and mongoloids waging the fight for terrorist rights.

Out of respect for another's religion you really need to get rid of your infidel.

Show respect for another's religion get rid of your icon. It says more about you than you think.

Why show respect for a religion utterly deserving of the harshest forms of contempt?

First of all “it’s” not an infidel, I’m an infidel regardless of my avatar. In fact, unless you smack your head into the pavement 5 times a day, you too are an infidel:

(To spell it out for you, “strive hard” is translated to Arabic jahidi which is the verbal form of jihad)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (Qur’an 9:78)


Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.(Qur’an 98:6)

And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; (Qur’an 8:60)

There are over 100 verses in the Qur’an that call believers to wage war against non-believers. If you’re scared and convert, just make sure you don’t change your mind:

Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him(Bukhari, vol. 9, book 88, no. 6922)

Remind you of that “perversion of Islam” in Afghanistan in which the Islamic convert to Christianity was to be tried and executed?

www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/22/afghan.christian/index.html

Some other quick trivia on this “beautiful” “peaceful” religion:

On the sexual rights of women:

Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like (Qur’an 2:223)

On female inheritance:

The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females (Qur’an 4:11)

On female discipline:

the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; (Qur’an 4:34)

Look up Jizya.

Research how women must go about charging a man for rape.

Research the Islamic phenomenon of temporary husbands and wives.

Research the Islamic views on lying, theft and murder.

Research Muhammad’s time as a warrior in the Quraysh tribe and his reaction when the Quraysh refused to accept his self proclaimed status as prophet.

Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish. His wealth and what he earns will not avail him. He shall soon burn in fire that flames, And his wife, the bearer of fuel, Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope. (Qur’an 111:1-5)

Sadly those hate-filled, narrow-minded bigots Alexis de Tocqueville and Winston Churchill misinterpreted Islam:

I studied the Kuran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of “Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.” ~ Alexis de Tocqueville

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science‹the science against which it had vainly struggled‹the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” ~ Winston Churchill

I’ll exercise my right to free speech (what’s left of it) and keep the so-called “Infidel” avatar. However, I respect your knee-jerk defense of that which you know nothing about. You’ve really become a true liberal.

[midcan5]

Ollie North, huh, where'd he come in at?

And they would kill you too so you would be equal dead - kinda stupid don't you think?

The bible has many similar phrases, why not quote them, and Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are of the same religious tree last I checked.

You want my respect? be man enough to get rid of the icon.

[Ian]

midcan5 said:

Ollie North, huh, where'd he come in at?

Hmmm, war hero derided by the left as a lying, criminal scumbag. Vietnam vets were routinely labeled baby-killers by left wing opponents to the war. I don't think your side has any ground to stand on when you protect some troop-smearing lush from legitimate inquiry by claiming veteran immunity. The left has at best a questionable record of respect for American fighting men.

And they would kill you too so you would be equal dead - kinda stupid don't you think?

Uh, no. 7-century illiterate savages armed with Soviet weapons don't fare well against Daisy Cutters when employed properly. Until these peasants figure out how to attach a 7000 mile capable delivery system to an RPG I'm not losing any sleep.

The bible has many similar phrases, why not quote them

You're the one asserting that Christianity is on par with Islam in the context of legitimized violence. I believe it's your responsibility to quote them.

and Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are of the same religious tree last I checked.

Because they worship the "same" God? Visit any mosque, synagogue and church, I'm sure even you'll discover that they have some very real differences. (Christians and Jews don't read the Qur'an )

You want my respect? be man enough to get rid of the icon.

Who said I wanted your respect?

[midcan5]

Five paws, never thought I would last this long.

Ian, there are a lot of myths that grew up after Vietnam, as a young man during those times who served for 3 and half years I can tell you most, if not all, are false. Did one nutty person call a soldier a baby killer? maybe, but there are nuts everywhere. I always like the stories of how we were spit on as we went through airports. We had to travel in uniform as we usually flew standby and not once did anyone say or do anything to any of us. Often I was helped as I dragged a heavy duffel bag trying to catch a fight home. We rushed home not back to duty lol.

If North was criticized it was for his actions after his service. I think he did break the law.

www.veteransforpeace.org/Did_protesters_spit_050803.htm

" Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam combat veteran, has written a well documented book, "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" (New York University Press, 1998) that thoroughly debunks the tales of protesters "spitting upon" Vietnam vets. Lembcke conducted extensive research to ascertain that there were no contemporaneous news reports or police complaints lodged to substantiate the claims that began appearing in the media about 1991. The perpetuation of such myths only blocks the healing of Vietnam veterans from our "culture of victimization," and it serves the agenda of those pro-war forces who place fear and intimidation in the path of open debate on the pressing issues of the moment."