I'm startled just plain startled

[cupolaa5]

moonotmo said:

Ahh, the good old American "all the other countries suck" philosophy. I can clearly see why the world envys you.

It is a bit of a shame that only Americans get to vote, considering how many people who have died from foreign countries recently as a direct result of US foreign policy. It is undeniable that America has a huge inpact on the world, so is it not fair to give them at least some say in what happens, at least regarding their foreign policy?

Many countries' citizens are held illegally in Guantanamo Bay seemingly indefinitely. US policy is a major source of instability, inciting terrorism globally. Countries are invaded illegally with the new "pre-emptive strike" philosophy, and yet many American citizens greet this with little or no skeptism, despite the justification for war being changed on an almost weekly basis as the original reasons prove to be false. You know something is wrong when foreigners know more about American politics than many of Americans themselves.


A reason to vote for Bush is to annoy the rest of the world? I can clearly see why the world envys you. And if you voted for Bush for that very reason...that certainly worries me.


Did you see all these "terrorists" there before the US decided to jump into the country? Or did they all jump into Iraq when the US charged into the country and turned it into chaos?


Let's try to expand your tunnel vision to countries other than America. Do the "Madrid bombings" ring a bell? Also, it has only been 3 years since America was attacked. In the 3 years before 11/9, was America attacked then? Is "we have not been attacked since 11/9" that much of an accomplishment?


Indeed. They probably love it.

I have an idea why don't you quit extending your arms for more money and take care of your selves.Don't ask us for anything! you sure like our money tho!

[cupolaa5]

Moonotmo in case you haven't heard we are at war would you prefer fighting in the streets of america? This country has been good to a lot of people here and over seas! I have noticed something through the years I don't ever recall a mass exit out ? If you have such a problem with our country maybe you should find some where else to go?I would never stay If I had your beliefs. But thats me! I wouldn't like being called a hypercrit!

[Citizen]

Moonotmo in case you haven't heard we are at war would you prefer fighting in the streets of america?

Might as well fight over seas, eh govnah?

This country has been good to a lot of people here and over seas!

Yes, the dead civilians (oh wait, lemme speak in Republican terms) - the casualities of war, are just BRIMMING with joy and freedom now.

Americans - you deserve your leader.

[starm]

Bush is a deterrent toward the eventual existence of peace in the world. I mean for peace to happen major countries have to set the example. If the US are going to set the example that war is the standard way to solve problems on this planet then, the other countries and terrorists are going to use that standard set by the US when they have a problem. If the US countries do vast militarization, the other countries will have to try to match the amount of fire power they have which will lead to more use of that firepower. This is pure logic.
Might does not make right. Neither does it provide wisdom, beauty, friendship, or security. By brandishing its might without wisdom, the Bush Administration has created an ugly America that is turning America's friends against them and undermining the true basis of their security.
In a few short months, the Bush Administration has managed to do what the Soviet Union failed to do over generations: isolate the US from its allies, drive a wedge into the heart of NATO, turn America into a pariah for the world's people, and put hostile countries like North Korea on the road to acquiring nuclear weapons.

In a recent poll, more Britons said the US was the biggest threat to world peace that said Iraq was. If Tony Blair tries to go to war without the endorsement of the Security Council, his days are numbered. Bush's last major ally will be plunged into a political or even a constitutional crisis.

Let me say this..if I thought that all of the following would be true, I would have supported the war in Iraq:
• There would be no or extremely few civilian casualties
• The US troops would be welcomed as liberators, both by the Iraqi people and the Arab world at large
• We would leave a liberal democracy with civil liberties and relatively little corruption
• The Arab street would look at our actions favorably and assume no malicious intent
• We know what happens when Saddam is removed from power and prove that things will better than they are now
• Prove to me that Gulf War II wouldn't create more Osama's
However, I simply never believed that any of these things would happen. In any terrorism related action, two things need to be weighed against each other, the terrorist capability being taken out and the potential to inflame the Arab street which will cause many people to become terrorists and take up arms against us.


Also this text by Jimmy Carter says it well: “Since it is obvious that Saddam Hussein has the capability and desire to build an arsenal of prohibited weapons and probably has some of them hidden within his country, what can be done to prevent the development of a real Iraqi threat? The most obvious answer is a sustained and enlarged inspection team, deployed as a permanent entity until the United States and other members of the U.N. Security Council determine that its presence is no longer needed. For almost eight years following the Gulf War until it was withdrawn four years ago, UNSCOM proved to be very effective in locating and destroying Iraq's formidable arsenal, including more than 900 missiles and biological and chemical weapons left over from their previous war with Iran.
Even if Iraq should come into full compliance now, such follow-up monitoring will be necessary. The cost of an on-site inspection team would be minuscule compared to war, Saddam would have no choice except to comply, the results would be certain, military and civilian casualties would be avoided, there would be almost unanimous worldwide support, and the United States could regain its leadership in combating the real threat of international terrorism.”<br>

[starm]

This text also has a lot of good points:
www.yellowhat.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?board=dem;action=display;num=1098160833

[starm]

And another of the great political e-mails. This one is more recent but also an inspiration.

Things you have to believe to be a Republican today;

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

the United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multinational corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

HMOs and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.

Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

the public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George W's driving and military records are none of our business.

Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. then it's an illness, and you need our prayers for your recovery.

What Bill Clinton did (or did not) inhale in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush snorted in the '80s is irrelevant.

You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have the right to adopt

[starm]

Other reasons why I am just plain startled.:


George W. Bush
the White House, USA

~ Please consider my experience when voting in 2004. ~
Past Work Experience:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

I produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas; the company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.

With my father's help and name, I was elected Governor of Texas.

Accomplishments as Governor:

I changed pollution laws in favor of the power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

I replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog-ridden city in America

I cut taxes and bankrupted Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any Governor in American history.

I became U.S. President after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes with the help of major Enron money and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments as President:

I attacked and overtook two countries.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.

My record for environmental issues is the least of my concerns:

I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.


I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one year period.


After taking-off the entire month of August, I then presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I am supporting development of a "Tactical Bunker Buster" nuke, a WMD.

I am getting our troops killed, under the lie of Saddam's procurement of Yellow Cake Nuke WMD components, then blaming the lie on our British friends.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. president.

In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any president in U.S. history.


I set the record for least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

I signed more laws and executive orders effectively amending or ignoring the Constitution than any president in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history and refused to use national reserves as past presidents have done.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people) shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I've dissolved more international treaties than any president in U.S. history.

I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in U.S. history.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history.

My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I am the first president in U.S. history to have almost all 50 states of the Union simultaneously suffer massive financial crisis.

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in history.

I am the first president in U.S. history to order a pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of
a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

I created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of
the United States.

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in history.

I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Elections Monitoring Board

I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in U.S. history.

I rendered the entire United Nations viewpoints irrelevant.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war"
(detainees)
and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.


I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).


I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.


My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation) presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. history. My political party used the Enron private jets and corporate
attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.

I have spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a
year later made the U.S. the most resented country in the world, possibly the largest failure of
diplomacy in World history.

I am actively working on a policy of "disengagement" creating the most hostile of Israel-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

I am first president in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view
my presidency as the
biggest threat to world peace and security.

I am the first U.S. president in history to have the people of South Korea feel more threatened by the U.S. than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I set an all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated U.S. law by not selling their huge personal investments in corporations bidding for U.S. contracts.

I failed to fulfill my pledge to capture Osama Bin Laden, dead or alive.

I failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the U.S. Capitol Building. Even after 18 months I have no leads and no credible suspects.

In the past 18 months following the World Trade Center attack I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

I removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any president in U.S. history.

In a little over two years, I created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided since the Civil War.

I entered my office with the strongest economy in U.S. history and have turned every single economic category downward -- all in less than two years.

Records and References:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine. My Texas driving record has been erased and is not available.

I was AWOL from the National Guard.

I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed, and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public review.

[UncleVinny]

Thanks for that, Starm.

Great piece.

Yes, as the London newspaper headline today reads:

"How can 58 million American be so dumb?"

Amen!

Stupid people electing Lord of the Idiots!

Demographic breakdown of the electorate show that the less educated you are, the more likely to vote for Bush. Top intellects vote overwhelminly Kerry.

A sad day for America!

I guess they have to see their brothers and sons beheaded before they see the stupidity of war!

[groucho]

starm said:

Other reasons why I am just plain startled.:


George W. Bush
the White House, USA

~ Please consider my experience when voting in 2004. ~
Past Work Experience:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. Just like John Edwards.....

I produced a Hollywood slasher B movie. Modeled after the "A" prototype Roe Versus Wade

Yeah - W's sure no Ted Kennedy, I'll grant you!!

[moonotmo]

cupolaa5 said:

have an idea why don't you quit extending your arms for more money and take care of your selves.Don't ask us for anything! you sure like our money tho!

Since that post was physically painful to read, I'll reply to what I think you meant to say. Please repost in English if I missed your point.

You seem to imply I'm not from America. Ding. I'm not. So this means I should keep my nose out of America's business, right? Well, since the US is the most powerful country in the world, their policies are quite obviously going to effect me, so I have every right to influence them in every way I can. On the other hand, there is no need to get involved with - for example - Australian politics, as they have little to no effect on me. As for what "take care of your selves" means I'm not sure; we're quite happy taking care of ourselves as we do now thank ya.

cupolaa5 said:

Moonotmo in case you haven't heard we are at war would you prefer fighting in the streets of america?

I'd prefer fighting terrorists abroad than at home, of course. If someone is going to attack your country, I don't see it being a problem preventing them first. However - attacking countries who pose no threat to you isn't the best tactic, but something that Bush seems intent on doing.

cupolaa5 said:

This country has been good to a lot of people here and over seas!

When? Not in the last four years, surely.

cupolaa5 said:

I have noticed something through the years I don't ever recall a mass exit out ? If you have such a problem with our country maybe you should find some where else to go?

I have no intention of visiting America.

[starm]

Hey where are you from moonotmo? Just Curious.

[Vagrant]

When? Not in the last four years, surely.

Hmm, how many Kurds in Iraq or Pashtuns in Afghanistan have you talked to? None? Dang sorry to hear that you are not as well informed as you think you are.

[moonotmo]

starm said:

Hey where are you from moonotmo? Just Curious.

London.

Vagrant said:

Hmm, how many Kurds in Iraq or Pashtuns in Afghanistan have you talked to? None? Dang sorry to hear that you are not as well informed as you think you are.

To be honest, that was a very tongue-in-cheek comment. I know America has helped out in the world in the last four years - my point was for many in the world, we don't find America's actions as good for the world community as many Americans themselves might think. This whole war in Iraq nonsense has been the most predominant issue of course, as it has made our country a more dangerous place to live, as well as many others (Madrid bombings anyone?). Of course the US has done some good things in the last four years, but they have also done many bad things, and understandably these are the things that doesn't make the world approve of The Prez.

[starm]

so hum... I was just reading headlines today and the US dollar is at a record low today. Do you realize that the US dollar compared to the canadian dollar is worth 1/3 less today than 2 years ago? That is quite a lot.

this blog talks about it:

blogs.salon.com/0002007/2004/10/09.html


Edit: Its quite nice to know that (since a lot of what I buy comes from the US) my money is worth 33% more today than 2 years ago. I got a 33% additional return on my investements. ;D ;D ;D

[gamter]

haha all the conservatives are getting their asses whipped in this thread.. not that it matters since theyre all dumbasses and will never change their mind no matter how many times you disprove their arguments. They'll just forget everything you said and wallow in their parents money.. and then once they put this flag in their next post theyll think their love for america makes them better than you