New fears of Military Draft

[Ian]

And you know what dumbed down baffoons the SEALs are.

Of course we can out-fight anyone for an extended period of time due to technology and, taking into account the losses of prior wars, the current engagement in Iraq is a minor skirmish really. At Gettysburg alone, over 50,000 people died in less than three days (1863).

A fact all of the liberal press forgets to report.

[UncleVinny]

To clarify: Yes, I do think the soldier killing the wounded combatant is committing murder. I also think it's in a way 'understandable,' even forgivable considering the circumstances, the stress, and the fog of war. Kinda like abortion: some consider it murder, others acceptible in certain situations.

New report in today's LA Times (Gold): Soldiers in the Guard being treated like 'prisoners' in Medesto California camp - they are used to 1 weekend a month, and now they are full-time soldiers. Many complain of inadequate training and poor equipment. Many going AWOL, at least for a few days so they can see their families before being shipped over. Looks like some soldiers are beginning to resent going to war.

[Ian]

UncleVinny said:

New report in today's LA Times (Gold): Soldiers in the Guard being treated like 'prisoners' in Medesto California camp - they are used to 1 weekend a month, and now they are full-time soldiers. Many complain of inadequate training and poor equipment. Many going AWOL, at least for a few days so they can see their families before being shipped over. Looks like some soldiers are beginning to resent going to war.

The problem is we have people going into the Guard to supplement their income or pay for college who wouldn't accept going to war under any circumstances. Didn't they wonder what the Guard is for before they signed up? Just to clarify: Soldiers are people who kill our enemies. Sometimes they get killed themselves. If you don't think this sounds good, you might not want to enlist in the military.

[BOLO]

Bolo,

Although I agree that we're in good shape militarily I must disagree with your claim that recruitment for the armed forces is "UP". It's not up at all.

Smarmy dude. Really smarmy. Here's the TRUTH.
usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/2004recruitgoal.htm

Services Meet FY 2004 Recruiting Goals
From Rod Powers,
Your Guide to U.S. Military.
Oct 15 2004
All of the U.S. Military services, with the exception of the Army and Air National Guard met their recruiting and retention goals for Fiscal Year 2004 (which ended on September 30), according to Department of Defense (DOD) recruiting documents.
The Army enlisted 77,587 soldiers through September, besting the year's goal by 587 soldiers.
Through Sept. 29, the Navy reported that it enlisted 39,874 sailors, bettering its goal by 254 sailors.
The Air Force said it enlisted 34,362 service members for the year, topping its recruiting goal by 282 people.
The Marine Corps reported it had enlisted 36,794 service members for the fiscal 2004, which topped its goal by 21 enlistees.
The Coast Guard recruited 3,809 over their recruiting goal of 3,800. It should be noted that the services purposely do not exceed their recruiting goals by large factors, because this may cause them to exceed the authorized active duty strength levels imposed by Congress.
Instead, before the new fiscal year even begins, the services start signing many recruits into the Delayed Enlistment Program (DEP), so they will enlist on active duty and ship out to basic training during the next fiscal year (in effect, getting a "head start" on the next fiscal year's recruiting goals).
Even though the the services are only a few days into the new fiscal year (FY 2005), thousands of recruits are already waiting in the DEP. The Army is a little worried because they have significantly fewer members in the DEP at the start of this fiscal year than they had at the beginning of FY 2004, but officials admit that FY 2004 began with an unusually higher number of recruits in the DEP (as compared to prior years). Last year, the Army had about 35 percent of their FY 2004 recruiting goal waiting in the DEP at the start of the fiscal year. This year, the number has decreased to about 18 percent. However, officials anticipate few problems meeting their FY 2005 goal. To help ensure this, the Army is planning to put 1,000 more recruiters into the field and make more agressive use of enlistment bonuses and other enlistment incentives throughout FY 2005.
Meanwhile, the Air Force and the Navy have decreased the number of recruits they will be enlisting in FY 2005. Both of the services are over their congressionally-mandated active duty end strength, and must decrease in size by the end of the fiscal year.
Unfortunately, the National Guard is not doing as well. Both the Army and the Air National Guard reported that they'd missed their 2004 enlisted recruiting objectives. Many people join the National Guard with the expectation of part-time service (one weekend per month, and four weeks per year). However, in the past several years, it's become more and more common to mobilize National Guard forces to supplement active duty combat deployments. Some Guard members find themselves recalled to active duty for periods of one to two years. As of October 6, there were 173,335 members of the Reserves and National Guard who were mobilized in support of the "War on Terrorism."
Surprisingly, however, while the Army and Air National Guard missed their FY 2004 recruiting goal, the Army, Naval, Marine Corps and Air Force Reserve said they'd met their recruiting goals for the year.

The army in particular is so strained that, as you may or may not know, the Green Beret recently made available--for the first time in US history--the opportunity to enlist as a civilian (similar to the Navy Seals enlistment track). That means that our "Special Forces" are now getting dumbed-down to the man on the street for initial recruitment. Yes they get training. But they're not as experienced as the old school Beret of yesteryears, all of whom had at least five years of active duty prior to SF training.

www.goarmy.com/special_forces/index.jsp
www.goarmy.com/special_forces/training.jsp

As a member of the Army’s Special Forces you will find strength you never knew you had. The road to get there has a number of unique challenges. All Green Berets go through the same basic training as enlisted Soldiers, but are given other opportunities for special training, including Airborne School. For the first time in many years the Army is recruiting civilians to join the U.S. Special Forces.

This is a 30-day course taught at Fort Bragg is designed to help Soldiers prepare for the Special Forces Assessment and Selection course. It focuses on physical training and one of the most important skills a SF Soldier can have—land navigation. This course does not guarantee you will pass the Special Forces Assessment/Assignment and Selection (SFAS).

This is 24 days of training like you’ve never experienced. And it’s all about survival. Your intelligence, agility and resourcefulness will all be tested. If you make it, you can continue on to the SF Qualification Course.

Why this change in recruitment policy? Because the regular army (which recruits civies) hasn't been getting enough fresh blood to succcessfully provide the Green Beret with enough advanced level personnel without straining itself. So now, the GB has to go out looking for novices.

Wrong. They are targeting from civilian life and using Spec Ops as an incentive. You still have to qualify and you still have to pass all the test. And guess what? If you don't, you're out. You want to take the time to figure out how long it's going to take to make the Special Forces MOS?
Note the Red Underlined portions.
If they pass they qualify. Bottom line.
The internal levels for recruitment to the Special Forces remain at a high level including Delta and Rangers.
You took a story and twisted it and gave it meaning it did not have. The Army is having no problem providing nominees to Spec Ops.

Of course we can out-fight anyone for an extended period of time due to technology and, taking into account the losses of prior wars, the current engagement in Iraq is a minor skirmish really. At Gettysburg alone, over 50,000 people died in less than three days (1863).

How nice of you to condescend. What the hell does Gettysburg have to do with anything.?
We lost more KIA and WIA in one day of fighting at Con Thein on the DMZ while I was there than have been lost in two weeks of fighting in Fallujah.
I have many more times that number on the Wall in Washington DC.
That was a tried and true attempt at Vinnyism. Twist the words and give them new meaning. Only Vinny isn't smart enough to do it as you did, so you're not Vinny but you are from the same cast.
Too all you Liberals. Try something new. Try the Truth. Plain and unvarnished.

[BOLO]

To clarify: Yes, I do think the soldier killing the wounded combatant is committing murder.

There is no point in discussing this with you, and anyone else that does, does a disservice to our Marines and soldiers. Vinny is an ignorant ass that wants the Military to be hated and the U.S., in particular, to be despised. To that end he makes snap judgments based on his Liberal perceptions and hatreds, he is not going to let facts get in his way of demagoguing the Troops and this Country.

I also think it's in a way 'understandable,' even forgivable considering the circumstances, the stress, and the fog of war. Kinda like abortion: some consider it murder, others acceptible in certain situations.

You don't think ignorant imbecile.

New report in today's LA Times (Gold): Soldiers in the Guard being treated like 'prisoners' in Medesto California camp - they are used to 1 weekend a month, and now they are full-time soldiers. Many complain of inadequate training and poor equipment. Many going AWOL, at least for a few days so they can see their families before being shipped over. Looks like some soldiers are beginning to resent going to war.

Vinny. You are too stupid for words. You think you can fool anyone don't you?
Idiot.
Check your history dude. Aw. Never mind. That would require effort and thinking on you part and honest effort.
Another George had the same problem. You know. George Washington? No of course you don't. Never heard of Valley Forge either.
The Colonial Army had that problem all through the War of Independence. We had that problem through all our history. So did all the other Nations of the World.
We all survived the wimps of the world making little whiny noises.
As far as I am concerned let the little baby's go. They are not fit to serve with the Honorable, and Courageous, Men, and Women, that are serving. Bunch of Whiny little babies. Like you, you liar.

[Edge]

Dear Bolo,


It troubles me that you took time away from your Turkey to compose your reply to me. Thank you. Just to be clear, I wasn’t purposely attempting to torque reality. Although, if I happen to be adept at that, it may be due to all the Creationist Science I've been inundated with, which has systematically debunked the myth of modern physics.

In regard to the Green Beret, I was looking at an article put forth by the Associated Press (portions of which I have included below). I do reiterate my belief that the regular army does not have enough manpower to keep a high-rate flow of Green Beret recruits, hence the opening to civilian candidates. There would be no other reason, in fact, for such a change in recruitment policy. It would be illogical to take the lesser by choice, when you could take the greater at your beck and whim.


greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/06/16/200306168419.htm
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

COLUMBIA — Unconventional warfare in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq taught the U.S. Army it needed more unconventional warriors.

In order to increase its pool of potential Special Forces members, officials are selectively recruiting civilians for a program that could make them Green Berets in about two years.

The new program is attracting hundreds more recruits than anticipated and the young men entering "off the street" appear to be doing well, Army officials say.

"What's amazing is ... those who are coming in are qualifying," said Leslie Ann Sully, spokeswoman for the local Army recruiting office that covers South Carolina, western North Carolina and eastern Georgia.

"And not just anyone can be Special Forces. You have to be a much more mindful soldier. It means using your brain. It means being a teacher. It means more than just using your muscles," Sully said.

I must insert my own notation here. If "those who are coming in off the street", are qualifying, then there is a contradiction between that fact and Sully's second statement that "not just anyone can be Special Forces". Green Beret are getting dumbed down, Bolo-- both in recruit material and length of training.

The move comes as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld prods the U.S. military to become more agile and lethal.

The Army has approximately 6,250 Special Forces soldiers in its active duty ranks and counts 2,500 in National Guard units, said Maj. Gary Kolb, a spokesman for Army Special Forces Command at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Gen. Kevin Byrnes, in charge of overall Army doctrine and training, said officials realized they needed to attract more men into the field.


The effort began last year with more than 460 men; women are not allowed to join. This year, the Army wanted to recruit 600 civilians for the program, and an official at the Army's recruiting headquarters at Fort Knox, Ky., said there won't be any problem meeting that goal.

Kolb said some of the first recruits in the program " are about to finish up in six months or so. ... They are some of the best recruits we're getting. They are very smart guys."

So far, those who have entered the program appear to just the kind of people the military is looking for. "They are highly motivated," said Lt. Gen. Dennis Cavin, who's in charge of Army recruiting.

" A lot of people wanted to do this very elite thing, but it just wasn't available," Cavin said. "It's opened up, and people want to go do the fun thing."

After spending two years in college studying journalism and a brief try at acting, Nathan Tuten, 20, of Columbia headed for the recruiting station after he saw the new initiative mentioned in a local newspaper.

"I would go for Special Forces even without this special program. ... I feel I have the mental and physical abilities, but I've never been challenged to that extent before. I want to see if I have what it takes," he said.

[glow=red,2,300] END [/glow]

It's great that Nathan Tuten is unsure of his life's calling, what with a brief dabbling into stage-acting and a few semesters of journalism. But somehow, just wanting to "test his mental and physical" limits doesn't add up to Green Beret ethos. What it might add up to is a summer with Adventure Bound.

[Ian]

Nice to know that Edge is an authority on the Special Forces. Cancel your subscription to SOF and actually go in the military. Holy crap this guy can talk. Perhaps BOLO took the time to give your meaningless post a reply, that speaks to his generosity. I, however, do have turkey to eat and football to watch. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow.

[Edge]

Ian said:

Perhaps BOLO took the time to give your meaningless post a reply, that speaks to his generosity. I, however, do have turkey to eat and football to watch. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow.

Really? Pretty funny that you were the first to respond! In fact, you seem to be making a point of being the first to reply to all my posts. Are you sure you actually have enough Turkey to eat, Ian? You can always stick your foot in your mouth if you run out.

[BOLO]

So edge..you like had a Turkey leg in one hand while you typed with the other?

It troubles me that you took time away from your Turkey to compose your reply to me. Thank you. Just to be clear, I wasn’t purposely attempting to torque reality. Although, if I happen to be adept at that, it may be due to all the Creationist Science I've been inundated with, which has systematically debunked the myth of modern physics.

Ah. Now I see. Well that's nice.
However the applications of Creationism apply only within the Creationist circle. It is not widely accepted, nor are the philosophies attendent there to.
I said you were better at it than Vinny. I also said Vinny is stupid. Base as it were. Quite common. Capice

In regard to the Green Beret, I was looking at an article put forth by the Associated Press (portions of which I have included below). I do reiterate my belief that the regular army does not have enough manpower to keep a high-rate flow of Green Beret recruits, hence the opening to civilian candidates. There would be no other reason, in fact, for such a change in recruitment policy. It would be illogical to take the lesser by choice, when you could take the greater at your beck and whim.

Ahh. the AP. Great outfit. Sometimes they even tell the truth. (I think they do that to keep people off balance)
The article may be great. The conclusion you and it jumped to are not.
The First Spec Op forces were the Rangers under Col Robert J Rogers. They had, in some cases, no training, and little experience. They gained it the hard way.
Subsequent Spec Ops units including the Swamp Fox, Col Frances Marion, in the War of Independence, as well as Ranald Mckenzies Flying Cavalry in the Indian wars in the West and Darby's Rangers as well as La Brigada Diablo, (actually the Black Devils) in WW II have much in common. All the participants were limited in experience but big in innovation. You get the point?
The facts say no shortage. Internal recruitment for the Spec Ops is a Little above pre war levels. You keep trying to equate outside recruitment with poor morale, lack of applicants and drying up resources. The facts say otherwise.

In order to increase its pool of potential Special Forces members, officials are selectively recruiting civilians for a program that could make them Green Berets in about two years.

You offer assumption based on deliberate misinterpretation of the facts. AP chose to jump to that erroneous conclusion. You jumped with them.
That is not why they are doing it. Congress is meddling and pressure is being put on the Intelligence Community to get more HUMINT, (Human Intel) until that can be done they want Spec Ops to fill in. It's been done before going back to the OSS. In addition the War Gamers have changed the parameters of Future War. It is more Littoral than previously thought and that affecs Spec Ops in all Branches.
Did you notice the word pool?
You know? Something to draw from in the future.
Way to jump. Watch that cliff.
Oh. Yeah. One last thing. We draw recruits from the Human Race. They come in all conditions and from all backgrounds. Audie Murphy was a farm boy. Still has the record for Most Medal and Awards. Wonder if his desire to be in the Infantry and the Army (wanted the Marines first) would have been questioned by such as you?
Yeah it would have, wouldn't it?
Please...do not be troubled. Cease thy worry. I am capable of doing many things, some even at one time.

[Edge]

Bolo,


"So edge..you like had a Turkey leg in one hand while you typed with the other?"


No Bolo, actually it was a turkey breast.


"You keep trying to equate outside recruitment with poor morale, lack of applicants and drying up resources. The facts say otherwise."


Bolo, I'm not saying that Americans are running out of resources. Like I said in a prior post, we have the capacity to wage long-term warfare on technology alone. And obviously you have a greater understanding than I do about the history of American units, what their capabilities are, etc. All I was saying is that a fundamental shift has occurred in Green Beret recruitment policy; that the screening process is now shorter, and that to any non-military person this would connote a "dumbing down" of the Special Forces war machine.


"You offer assumption based on deliberate misinterpretation of the facts. AP chose to jump to that erroneous conclusion."


Bolo, how could AP jump to erroneous conclusions while simultaneously cite Green Beret and Pentagon officials who reiterate the story-line? Huh? Sounds to me like you're the one who's jumping to erroneous conclusions.


"We draw recruits from the Human Race. They come in all conditions and from all backgrounds. Audie Murphy was a farm boy. Still has the record for Most Medal and Awards. Wonder if his desire to be in the Infantry and the Army (wanted the Marines first) would have been questioned by such as you?
Yeah it would have, wouldn't it?


No, it wouldn't have been questioned by me at all. Many great warriors have come from similar origins. Carlos Hath*censored and Alvin C. York among them. That was a different era-- the era when boot camp instilled discipline via physical enforcement. An era when farm-boys arrived on the scene ten times more capable with a gun than most freshly initiated soldiers out of today's bootcamps. Might I refer you to a most excellent book on this very subject, The Tiger's Way by Col. John Poole, a name you're sure to have an appreciation for.

[cupolaa5]

UncleVinny said:

"Do these flags offend you UV?"

No I like flags too.
Post all you want. You can even try to make up in volume what is lacking in substance.


I love the flag and America. The real criminal is one who desacrates the flag by using it as a banner for an unjust, racist war against Arabs. They went in their for the oil, not some great love for the Iraqi people. How dare pro-war moron besmirch the good name of America by declaring a pre-emptive war!

Bush: Shame to America

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Kerry, the only candidate who served it!

Senator Kerry, Patriot: I salute you!

your right vinnie it is all about the oil thats why your beloved UNITED NATIONS refused to assist us in the war?like usual you got it all wrong! bang on that hash pipe some more!

[BOLO]

Bolo, how could AP jump to erroneous conclusions while simultaneously cite Green Beret and Pentagon officials who reiterate the story-line? Huh? Sounds to me like you're the one who's jumping to erroneous conclusions

Show me the quote from the military that says they are having a hard time recruiting, and that they need to do this to make up for that loss.
You jumped as did AP. NO ONE in the Military has said we are at a low period and need to recruit from the Streets. Remember the original contention?
Read Poole by the Way. Served with Gunny in Nam. Hath(you can not get the rest past the censor)

I must insert my own notation here. If "those who are coming in off the street", are qualifying, then there is a contradiction between that fact and Sully's second statement that "not just anyone can be Special Forces". Green Beret are getting dumbed down, Bolo-- both in recruit material and length of training.

Which misses the point. Why do you think they are dumb coming off the street?
They will be trained. I am told the entire process will take two to three years. Out of 100 that apply the survival rate is around three. Those three have to have what it takes. That negates dumbing down. There in lies the conundrum. It presumes the recruit is dumb to begin with. The Facts say other wise. They are smart enough to pass the AVASB test. They are passing the Courses as required. Bottom line. No Standards utilized by the Spec Op's (Special Forces in particular) are being downfraded, changed, or modified.

[UncleVinny]

"Show me the quote from the military that says they are having a hard time recruiting"

Recruitment is down 12% for the year, 30% last month!

www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/11/02/national_guard_recruit_goals_fall_short/


www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1099227300129520.xml


"Recruiting is tougher than it's been in a while," said James Sims, spokesman for the Ohio Guard, which is about 500 off its target of 2,100 recruits.

[BOLO]

Show me the quote from the military that says they are having a hard time recruiting"

Recruitment is down 12% for the year, 30% last month!

www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/11/02/national_guard_recruit_goals_fall_short/


www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1099227300129520.xml


"Recruiting is tougher than it's been in a while," said James Sims, spokesman for the Ohio Guard, which is about 500 off its target of 2,100 recruits.

Vinny, you don not have to prove you are a Jerk. We already know you are.
You do not have to prove your stupid, we already know that.
So...Why do you keep doing it.
I already said. NG was down because Regular is UP. Which part of that did you not understand?
..........?.........?...............?....................?...............
Never mind. You did not understand that.
First off. Each NG recruits by State. Alabama and many many others are on target. Some like Ohio are down. That's the way it goes. Has for years. Check out enlistment during Bill the Philanderer's reign. Way down.
So? What do you equate that too.
Second. The NG and Reserve do not count against Regular Armed forces (Full Time) quotas. Those are up and in some cases they exceed the goal.
One thing the NG will have to do as well as the Reserve is be more truthful in it's advertising. They for the most part play up the Crisis response of the Guard like Hurricanes and Tornadoes and Rivers rising. They played that up too much and many people were shocked to discover they had to go to war.
Better they don't join. NG goes up, goes down. It has been that way since it's inception.
The only thing that remains constant is the you are an imbecile.

[Edge]

Bolo,



1. "Show me the quote from the military that says they are having a hard time recruiting, and that they need to do this to make up for that loss."


I already did. Major General Kevin Byrnes—Commanding General of TRADOC (Training and Doctrine Command, for those unaware of the acronym)—said that officials realized they needed to attract more men into the field. My beef is not with a recruiting policy inclusive of men “off the street”, because such recruitment occurs in every war. Yes I understand that not everyone will make the cut for Special Forces—or at least, I hope not. My beef is with the fact that many of those people “off the street” are, by their own admission, drifters or college dropouts. They may be good enough for infantry. But realistically, the Green Beret would never extend such a wide-open invitation to those people in peacetime. Nor have they ever done so, in American history.

www.artsnashville.org/pubart/img/131.jpg [/img]

Back to Alvin York for a moment. Those were the days before camouflage. The man was a marksman on par with Daniel Boone, by all accounts. He was a champion in rifle comps prior to enlisting in 1918 and drew attention on account of his pre-honed abilities. He could out-shoot anyone in the unit and went on to kill over thirty Germans while capturing over one hundred singlehandedly. The same was true with Gunny Hath when he enlisted, who went on to kill over a hundred VC. And possibly, it was true for you too.

Speed up to where we are now: 21st century. The demands are in some ways less due to technology, but in many ways greater by the same token. Green Beret aren’t regular infantry as you well know. The bottom line is that we can’t line up Gunny Hath, Alvin York, or Audie Murphy with folks like Nathan Tuten. Yes, Tuten will be trained but all this casts a very dark shadow on the elite-ness of our military. If the best and brightest—supposed experts in foreign languages, high tech weapons deployment, and shock maneuvers—are composed of ex theater students who ran out of tuition money to continue their education, then you bet, I’m concerned about this new policy. Especially since it also entails a shorter training period for raw recruits. With a shortage of manpower it appears that the standards are slackening. The only legendary fighters we've produced thus far are women who get raped in the ass, ie, Jessica Lynch.


2. "Read Poole by the Way."


Great! Then you know all about the military’s failure to train its modern troops in a fashion which maximizes minimal deployment. Poole goes back to the Indians to reinvent some crucial combat techniques for today’s soldier. He also tells of how remiss we are in comparison to guerillas in other parts of the world. I mentioned the book only because the Iraqi war really is a classic guerilla war and demands specialized training as such. You had mentioned Rogers’ Rangers gaining their training along the way. This is true but I disagree that current Green Beret recruits are in the same position. Rogers and his men were crack shots and hunters since the day they were born. They were accustomed to frontier brutality. I just can’t envision people like Nathan Tuten even entering the military on par with one of Rogers’ fresh volunteers.