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Post by KGBagent on Jun 4, 2004 14:35:24 GMT -5
Marxism is evil b/c it wants to take away people's rights to be people. A part of their humanity to succeed and strive to do so.
Mo,
However, so is democracy, b/c it is by law minority opression. and technically, that minority can be 49% of the population. So yet again, the idea of communism is evil, and so is democracy. Just like the attempted practice of each.
By the way, you DO KNOW that Europe's governments are SOCIALIST democracies?
As opposed to our
CAPITALIST democracies?
Please note the word democracy in that...
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 4, 2004 15:02:52 GMT -5
He was talking about communism's ideology. Communism in reality HAS NO reality. Period.
so I'd really appreciate it, if you all would understand that communism never existed, and there have bene plenty of governments that have gone sour while trying to convert into a democracy.
So don't try any bullshit.
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Post by scummybear on Jun 4, 2004 15:19:21 GMT -5
I think what we may have here is a cultural misunderstanding. Perhaps communism and socialism are interpreted a different way in America to the UK. You would be hard put to find anyone here who agrees that socialism and communism are ideologically identical - different only in their pragmatics. Especially seeing as a socialist party is in government at the moment and we are hardly killing off the kulaks over here... How does marxism have evil motives? Surely the belief that each human being should be equal is not an evil idea? This statement, among other things, is historically false. How many hundreds of thousands of people died in the white armies during Russian civil war to prevent Lenin from establishing control? Were they "doing nothing"? There is no cultural misunderstanding. There is a difference in ideology. I wouldn't expect you or the UK (as a whole) to agree with the definition, because that would mean an acknowledgement of the truth in it. Also, a belief that all human beings should be equal is not a procalamation of benevolence in the Marxist sense. It is actually egalitarianism that is implied with stealth so as to hide the true motives. It IS evil. It tears down individuality and acheivment and restricts growth. |
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 5, 2004 6:15:23 GMT -5
This may be the result of communism once it is applied in its purest form, but the motive of marxism per se is not in anyway to destroy individuality. Marx argues the watering down of indivduality is actually intrinsic capitalism, in that workers become alienated from the products they produce. Marx would argue that capitalism wanted to "take away people's rights to be people." Although the politics of Marx fails once applied, you cannot deny that his heart was in the right place.
What do you mean by this? Communism never existed? Doesn't exist as an ideology?
Firstly, words don't have a set trancendental unalterable meaning in this way. But more importantly if there was fundamental "truth" in the idea the socialism and communism are ideologically identical, wouldn't that mean all of the socialist governments in Europe (Britain, France, Spain etc...) are actually identical to Russia in 1923? Would it also mean the parti communiste and the parti socialiste in France have the same policies?
Futhermore what are these "true motives" of Marxism you speak of? Is your argument that all revolutionary socialists are motivated by a desire to opress and kill others?
These are the results of Marxism when it is applied in its purest form, not its motives.
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Post by scummybear on Jun 5, 2004 13:24:14 GMT -5
Whatever,
This is hair splitting in the most extreme form, and whats more is that it doesn't make a bit of sense.
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Post by MO on Jun 5, 2004 13:35:43 GMT -5
Yes I can. Stealing is always wrong. Basic moral principle.
Marx's brand of stealing put in to practice brings this result: 20 million executed by Stalin and 10 million executed by Mao.
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 5, 2004 15:24:05 GMT -5
And Marx would agree. Which is why he argued that bosses stealing the goods the workers had made and selling them off was wrong. This is the entire principal of Marxism.
This is a lot more than hair splitting. A claim that worldwide socialists are inherrantly evil is nothing but propoganda and needs to be put right.
Actually Mao killed much more than 10 million. But that is beside the point. Both Stalinism and Maoism are extremely mutated forms of socialism, that are incredibly far removed from both socialism today, and the original teachings of Marx.
Stalinism is a gross mutation of Leninism. And the majority of socialists in Russia (and the majority of the population were socialists in 1917) did not support the Bolsheviks in the October revolution.
I get so tired of wreckless "commie" bashing coming from people who seem to know nothing at all about the origins and evolution of left wing politics through time.
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Post by MO on Jun 5, 2004 15:52:53 GMT -5
What an elitist thing to say. Kids read Das Capital for part of their school indoctrination and think they are one of the ones who really "get it." That if it were only done right...  |
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Post by frankiegoestostoke on Jun 5, 2004 16:04:39 GMT -5
Now you're catching on  Since when have people been reading Das Capital at school? This sounds a little paranoid to me. So are you going to maintain your standpoint that Stalinism is inherrantly linked to Marx's works, and modern socialism itself? |
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 5, 2004 16:36:50 GMT -5
Yes I can. Stealing is always wrong. Basic moral principle.
Marx's brand of stealing put in to practice brings this result: 20 million executed by Stalin and 10 million executed by Mao.[/quote]Edited for personal insultEvery single government ever invented or turned to practice, then, now, and forever, will have flaws and will have good things about it too. This also applies to democracy and especially capitalism. Oh yeah, and you cannot judge an idea by it's implementation. If Marx knew what his ideas what do... well, he wouldn't have written the communist manifesto. And if you honestly believe that Marx wanted to bring people even more pain... I have nothing more to say.
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 5, 2004 16:40:59 GMT -5
Actually, Lenin was one of the best leaders this world has ever seen. His thoughts, strategies, and policies were very maluable and ready to change with the time, demand, and reality. That is what makes the best leader. Oh yeah, that and having a bit of protein in your brain (which immidiately crosses Bush out).
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Post by MO on Jun 5, 2004 16:52:42 GMT -5
PROMISE?  |
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 5, 2004 16:59:28 GMT -5
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Post by MO on Jun 5, 2004 17:12:38 GMT -5
Your "arguments" are too ridiculous to respond to! |
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Post by KGBagent on Jun 5, 2004 17:33:09 GMT -5
I provided that statement with very good reasons. And if it is so ridiculous, then please, DO enlighten me. Also note that Lenin did not want Stalin in power, and have you ever heard of the NEP?
Also, that was not my only argument, nor am I just talking about me. So stop acting the way you rag on other people acting.
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;D 
