The media is neither conservative or liberal

[frankiegoestostoke]

I think Israel has shown great restraint by not mowing them all down.

So are you advocating here the murder of every single palestinian man woman and child?

[Ian]

So are you advocating here the murder of every single palestinian man woman and child?

I think they are expressing their admiration for Israel's incredible respect for human rights in the wake of car bombers and Palestine's goal of killing every ISRAELI man, woman, and child

[frankiegoestostoke]

Israels incredible respect for Human Rights? The whole reasons those carbombs go off in the first place is because Isreal does not have an incredible human rights record within the occupied terrotories.

The wall built across the border of Palestine, in many cases cutting Palestinian settlements off from fresh water infringes freedom of movement. As do Israeli checkpoints.

Hapharzard incursions into Palestinian terroritory that result in civilian casualties infringe right to life.

And Israels repeated disrespect for the PA infringes Palestinian rights to form and elect their own government.

MO, you have responded to a technicality of what I have said, could you respond to all of it please? I'm curious to see what you say.

No further reply to the initial argument that the media is neither conservative nor liberal either.

[Ian]

The wall built across the border of Palestine, in many cases cutting Palestinian settlements off from fresh water infringes freedom of movement. As do Israeli checkpoints.

Which was built for what purpose? To help stop the flow of Palestinian terrorists.

Hapharzard incursions into Palestinian terroritory that result in civilian casualties infringe right to life.

Its called collateral damage.

The incursions are usually targeting Hamas, in retaliation to Palestinians going into Israel and killing civilians first.

And Israels repeated disrespect for the PA infringes Palestinian rights to form and elect their own government.

This is a matter of perspective, a which came first, if you will. Your not actually going to take the position that Palestine hasn't disrespected Israel and its government are you?

[MO]

MO, you have responded to a technicality of what I have said, could you respond to all of it please? I'm curious to see what you say.

What do you want me to respond to? You're either totally uneducated about Israel or you are anti-Semitic. Israel won the "territories" in a war that they didn't start. They have offered to give it up. Arafat refused! The PA wants all of Israel! Israel should not be expected to let them in to bomb them. If they would work towards building their own civilization, instead of building bombs to destroy Israel, they wouldn't need to get into Israel.


jewishinternetassociation.org/historynutshell/conflict.html

[Ian]

If they would work towards building their own civilization

Hmmm.....seems to be a pattern occuring.

[frankiegoestostoke]

Which was built for what purpose? To help stop the flow of Palestinian terrorists.

Who are a minority of the population. The existance of these roadblocks, and the construction of this wall, is not going to stop terrorist attacks.

There is a catch 22 here. Hamas, although it claims to be motived by the existance of Israel itself, is really motived at its grassroots by the terrible living conditions in Palestine sustained by Israeli occupation. It is no coincidence that the refugee camps in Gaza, that have the worst living conditions of anywhere in Palestine, are home to the most terrorist activity.

A question of who began what in the Isreal and Palestine conflict is meaningless as the question is too grounded in religious differences. The jews have a religious and a quasi-historical right to the land now known as Isreal. And the Arabs have a quasi-religious, and historical right to it.


We should be concerned at the moment with finding a peaceful solution. And that solution would be for Israel to pull out of both Gaza and the West Bank, demolishing its settlements in both places, and withdrawing Israeli roadblocks. Palestine would become its own indepedant country, and the powers of the PA would be restored.

Hamas would thus be unable to recruit.

[frankiegoestostoke]

And Mo,

I agree that Arafat's descision at the Camp David summit was shameful.

But what Arafat chose to do cannot be assumed to be in the name of the Palestinian people.

[Ian]

No, but as leader he has a great bearing over the actions of the "extremists".

I use quotes because I personally don't believe terrorism is an extremist position amongst those in the Muslim world, but for the sake of discussion.


It's nice not to have Peanut with us so we can actually have adult debates free of personal insults and profanity.

[frankiegoestostoke]

I use quotes because I personally don't believe terrorism is an extremist position amongst those in the Muslim world, but for the sake of discussion.

Do you beleive that a large proportion, say, over 35% of Arabs are would-be terrorists?

If you do beleive this, why do you think there are so many terrorists in the Muslim world?

[Ian]

Do you beleive that a large proportion, say, over 35% of Arabs are would-be terrorists?

All I'm saying is that if Christians we're repeatedly blowing themselves up to kill Muslims, and launched an attack on, let's say Tehran, that killed 3000 Iranians and continued to kill Muslims to date, do you believe that we would have leaders coming out talking about how peaceful Chritianity is? Ofcourse not. We're still talking about the Inquisition for Christ's sake.

[frankiegoestostoke]

All I'm saying is that if Christians we're repeatedly blowing themselves up to kill Muslims, and launched an attack on, let's say Tehran, that killed 3000 Iranians and continued to kill Muslims to date, do you believe that we would have leaders coming out talking about how peaceful Chritianity is? Ofcourse not. We're still talking about the Inquisition for Christ's sake.

And this would anger you, because as you know the majority of christians are not terrorists. So thus you have proved my point - it is wrong to brand the majority of Arabs as terrorists.

Or do you think its acceptable for the Muslim leaders to donounce all Christians in this situation?

And once again, why is it, do you think, that Muslim leaders would call for "the Inquisition for Christ's sake" in this circumstance?

Imagine it this way round.

The state of Israel is an Arab state, and it is Jewish people in Palestine who are opressed daily through incursions and road blocks. The Arabs have a claim to land that is based on religion, and 2,000 years old. The country exists because Britian colonised it after world war one.

I have absolutely no doubt that Bush would be on the side of the Jews, or Christians if they were Christians. I, on the other hand, would also be on the side of the Jews/Christians, because I wouldn't let religion, or I dare I say race, trancend problem at hand.

[MO]

I have absolutely no doubt that Bush would be on the side of the Jews, or Christians if they were Christians. I, on the other hand, would also be on the side of the Jews/Christians, because I wouldn't let religion, or I dare I say race, trancend problem at hand.

I disagree. I know plenty of people who are secular and are very much supporters of Israel. All it takes is a knowledge of the history.

[frankiegoestostoke]

And yet I have many Jewish, Christian and athiest freinds who think that Palestinians should have human rights.

[MO]

And yet I have many Jewish, Christian and athiest freinds who think that Palestinians should have human rights.

I think they should have human rights, too. I don't think they should have what the Pew poll says a majority of them want- Israel.