Blame America First, Last and Always

[spramp]

ItWillNeverWork said:

"if you have the time to get truly disgusted and read about how they actually felt "sorry" for Saddam"

can you paste a quote for that please?

p.s. sorry once again for my laziness but it seems quite a key point you are making so a more detailed quote in the context it was meant would be nice.

p.p.s, I'm not having a go, just like to be questioning, makes for entertaining conversation.

not a problem, i understand. here is a tidbit. i am really shocked to see than anyone might find any sympathy for this man. just my opinion of course and maybe i am just a cold hearted individual (although i highly doubt it) but he has caused so much suffering for others, how can he be pitied?

can i tell you girls something crazy?? the only real footage i saw of it today was at the gym and it was him being examined by a doctor, and you know what, it actually made me sympathetic for him. i know its crazy, but that particular shot, he just looked like a sad, sick old man, made me feel badly for him. i wonder if anyone else had this reaction.

My fiance just aid the exact same thing a few moments ago ... and he was kinda right, I unbelievably found myself feeling a bit bad for him

good. i'm glad i'm not the only one. those images are really powerful, and he just looks so sad, and hearing that he was hiding in this little hole- add that to the fact that i don't believe he was behind 9/11-- just sad. wierd. it might be the time of year too. i tend to get overly emotional about stupid crap.

Same here badgirl I actually got yelled at by mother when I said I felt bad for him after seeing how the doctor was looking for fleas. It was such an eerie image.

I saw the same footage at the gym today, and I felt bad for him too. (I know I felt that way for his dead sons).

I had the same reaction, you're not alone.

[chill out iwnw]

Man IWNW..you don't like Spramp for some reason do you? Spramp you sound like an intelligent person. By the way, I..don't bother replying...Just surfing here and wont' be back. Chill out man everything will be alright. 8

[ItWillNeverWork]

its called making challanging conversation. I'm sorry I didnt realise the internet was a forum for ideological back rubbing.

I'm sure spramp understands this and knows I am only trying to push the debate forward.

Or maybe we should never question anything ever. right? maybe we should all just post on forums where everyone is secure in knowing that whatever they say is agreed with and congratulated. right? maybe we should only ever look for new information in the places that back up our initial beliefs. right?

I mean, we'd all be a lot happier in our blissfull ignorance. right?

[cobalt]

hello all new to forum...
Can't agree to 'feel sorry' for Saddam
Do however feel sorry for his victims

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1877161.stm
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101689,00.html
www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=5192599

There are alot of Iraqis working towards a free Iraq. Look at the police stations, police themselves, ICDC - Iraqi Civil Defense Corp, Iraqi leadership who dare to step up to the plate....
How can any 'loving liberal' discount the Iraqi population who want FREEDOM?

[rush22]

"The images were "offensive," "disgusting" and gave the appearance that the United States is "gloating," Samatar said, not because Saddam was subjected to medical exams, but because U.S. officials filmed it and circulated the tape, which was then shown repeatedly on television.

It would have been far less offensive if the United States had examined Saddam off camera, said Samatar, dean of international studies and a scholar of Islamic studies. If U.S. officials felt it was necessary to prove that they had Saddam in custody, they should have cleaned him up and taken film of him under less humiliating circumstances, he said."

This isn't "feeling sorry" for Hussein, this is offensive because it is purposefully humiliating, when there is no reason whatsoever to humiliate him. You can say he deserves to be humiliated on camera, but remember the only reason he is on camera in the first place is to exploit his image and thereby manipulate public opinion. If it was merely to show he had been captured, a photograph, documents, or a film that wasn't a medical exam would easily suffice.

In fact, distributing the video of Hussein is against American law in terms of treating prisoners of war, and, as usual, is an impeachable offense that the Bush administration won't get impeached for.

"...prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."

The Bush administration violated this law by knowingly and purposefully exposing Hussein, a prisoner of war, to public curiosity.

[scummybear]

rush22 said:

This isn't "feeling sorry" for Hussein, this is offensive because it is purposefully humiliating, when there is no reason whatsoever to humiliate him. You can say he deserves to be humiliated on camera, but remember the only reason he is on camera in the first place is to exploit his image and thereby manipulate public opinion. If it was merely to show he had been captured, a photograph, documents, or a film that wasn't a medical exam would easily suffice.

In fact, distributing the video of Hussein is against American law in terms of treating prisoners of war, and, as usual, is an impeachable offense that the Bush administration won't get impeached for.

"...prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."

The Bush administration violated this law by knowingly and purposefully exposing Hussein, a prisoner of war, to public curiosity.

The purpose of "exposing" his image was to show proof of his capture, which I'm sure was needed for the Iraqi people to know, since they are skeptical of the news that they hear, and it was probably helpful for them to see and know that he is no longer in power. How would "documents" or "photos" prove anything?

The video didn't show him getting beaten, intimidated, or insulted in any way. And it was not shown for the purpose of "public curiosity". He is being treated a damn site better than he deserves. If showing the mug of a barbaric despot on T.V offends you in the sense that you're concerned about how he is being treated, you have some serious problems. However, I don't think that's the case with you, rush. I think that you loathe the Bush administration enough to say anything, no matter how incorrect or unfounded. Having said that, I think you couldn't care less about the Geneva Convention (which btw, was fashioned with WWII in mind, rather than terrorists today). They just used the GC as a means of the humane treatment the creep is now receiving.

And president Bush is not being impeached, and your right, he won't, because HE DID NOTHING WRONG!

And how was showing Hussein's image and attempt to "manipulate" public opinion?? I think the public is smart enough to know what they think about this pathetic piece of human debris.

Your support of a mass murderer is both mind boggling, and disgusting.

[rush22]

The purpose of "exposing" his image was to show proof of his capture, which I'm sure was needed for the Iraqi people to know, since they are skeptical of the news that they hear, and it was probably helpful for them to see and know that he is no longer in power. How would "documents" or "photos" prove anything?

How? By being evidence that he was captured. I.e. his personal documents, or photos of him in jail. Back in the days before video cameras were everywhere, this is how they would do it. I don't disagree that it is good to have proof, but that proof can come in many forms. I do agree that video is a very convincing proof.

The video didn't show him getting beaten, intimidated, or insulted in any way. And it was not shown for the purpose of "public curiosity".

Yes it was. There is absolutely no reason for the Army to release, to the media, a video of a medical examination of a POW. They could have easily released a video that was not a medical examination. For example, him being led away from the plane in handcuffs. That is why I conclude that their motive was to display the examination for public curiosity.

He is being treated a damn site better than he deserves. If showing the mug of a barbaric despot on T.V offends you in the sense that you're concerned about how he is being treated, you have some serious problems.

No it doesn't offend me. What does offend me is the use of POWs, any POWs, for propaganda purposes.

However, I don't think that's the case with you, rush. I think that you loathe the Bush administration enough to say anything, no matter how incorrect or unfounded.

Well, you're quite right that I loathe the Bush administration, but I believe my charge against Bush is valid. I'm not a lawyer obviously, but to me, displaying Hussein getting a medical examination was not protecting a POW from public curiosity, it was just the opposite, exposing them to public curiosity for propaganda purposes.

Having said that, I think you couldn't care less about the Geneva Convention (which btw, was fashioned with WWII in mind, rather than terrorists today). They just used the GC as a means of the humane treatment the creep is now receiving.

I do care about the Geneva Convention. There is a reason it is there, and it is not just the moral issues, but it is also there to protect American soldiers who are fighting in Iraq. To protect them from things like this. Second of all, the Iraq War is a war. The "war on terror" is not a war and is not subject to the Geneva Conventions, it is, however, still subject to the laws of the United States where they apply. The Iraq War is a declared war against an actual nation and does fall under the Geneva Convention. Therefore POWs such as Hussein are to be treated according to the Geneva Convention.

And president Bush is not being impeached, and your right, he won't, because HE DID NOTHING WRONG!

This is the tip of a huge iceberg. It will all come tumbling down, especially if Bush wins the election; I guarantee you impeachment proceedings will begin the next day. Getting a blow job from a skank is a far cry from commiting war crimes.

And how was showing Hussein's image and attempt to "manipulate" public opinion?? I think the public is smart enough to know what they think about this pathetic piece of human debris.

"What a pathetic piece of human debris he is." Notice the language: pathetic, debris. Would you have called him "pathetic debris" before watching the video? Because that's how he was portrayed. It seems your curiosity was piqued by his image. I would have called him a brutal tyrant, not "pathetic debris".

Of course, you're allowed to call him whatever you want, and I don't want to prove my case that way. My real point is that the Army is happy to portray him as "pathetic debris" to, one, demonstrate their prowess and control, and two, to show him powerless. This display was unneccesary to prove he was captured. Another interesting note is that, from what I've read, Hussein was captured well before the video came out.

Your support of a mass murderer is both mind boggling, and disgusting.

I am not supporting Hussein, I am supporting the Geneva Convention.

Your disrespect and ignorance of war is both amazingly naive and disturbing. How's that?

The "liberal media" is actually showing far too much restraint when it comes to George Bush and is constantly towing his line in apology. Bush will not only be impeached but spend the rest of his life in jail for war crimes and, it wouldn't surprise me, treason. There is no shame in supporting the president and party you believe in, but the time to swallow your pride and accept what is going on is now. There is nothing wrong with a Republican political philosophy, but the leader of that party, the current president, has got to go. Does Bush represent Republican ideals and values? The answer is no. If Clinton was kicked out, Bush will be kicked out even harder. Vote Republican, but don't you dare vote for a war criminal. He is dragging the Constitution and the American flag through the mud, and dishonoring the great country of the United States. Are you going to help him do that or are you going to stand up for your Republican ideals and make this nation great once again?

[scummybear]

rush22 said:

"What a pathetic piece of human debris he is." Notice the language: pathetic, debris. Would you have called him "pathetic debris" before watching the video? Because that's how he was portrayed. It seems your curiosity was piqued by his image. I would have called him a brutal tyrant, not "pathetic debris".

Of course, you're allowed to call him whatever you want, and I don't want to prove my case that way. My real point is that the Army is happy to portray him as "pathetic debris" to, one, demonstrate their prowess and control, and two, to show him powerless. This display was unneccesary to prove he was captured. Another interesting note is that, from what I've read, Hussein was captured well before the video came out.




Your disrespect and ignorance of war is both amazingly naive and disturbing. How's that?

The "liberal media" is actually showing far too much restraint when it comes to George Bush and is constantly towing his line in apology. Bush will not only be impeached but spend the rest of his life in jail for war crimes and, it wouldn't surprise me, treason. There is no shame in supporting the president and party you believe in, but the time to swallow your pride and accept what is going on is now. There is nothing wrong with a Republican political philosophy, but the leader of that party, the current president, has got to go. Does Bush represent Republican ideals and values? The answer is no. If Clinton was kicked out, Bush will be kicked out even harder. Vote Republican, but don't you dare vote for a war criminal. He is dragging the Constitution and the American flag through the mud, and dishonoring the great country of the United States. Are you going to help him do that or are you going to stand up for your Republican ideals and make this nation great once again?

How would you know anything about how great this country is? And why do you care? I would really like to know.
How dare you puke your sanctimonious vomit to me about dishonor, and "dragging" the constitution and the flag through the mud.
This nation IS great NOW. You wouldn't know that because you don't live here. And if you do, your blind and deaf.
You, and all of the rest of your red buddies would be tickled pink for the United States to have a weak, bleeding heart liberal president in the office, so we could be diluded down to the lethargic, apathetic, communist dream that you hold so dear.
And, what makes you think that me or anyone else with a thread of common sense thought any differently about Saddam Hussein before the stupid, unconsequential video, than after. My opinion did not change. He was a narcissistic sociopath before and after. It's laughable that you think that it changed anyone's opinion.

And don't try to suppose what my thoughts were, or question my selection of adjectives to describe anyone. Especially "a brutal tyrrant"

And the liberal media is working overtime to try to destroy this president. You just don't see it, because you won't and because YOU ARE NOT HERE! Are you? Don't you live where our deserters and dodgers run to?

I carried a Geneva Convention card, did you? I think your being dishonest when you say your in support of the Geneva Convention. Because I think it's even more obvious,(from your post) your contempt for the U.S in general.
I'm so sure that poor Saddam followed the Geneva Convention to the letter - NOT.
Are you as incensed about Saddam's atrocities as you are about the nonsense that you accuse the president of? I didn't think so.

www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm260.cfm

Had it been a liberal president, I doubt you would have cried as loudly or if at all. I think your bitter about your IMPEACHED darling Clinton, who btw wasn't IMPEACHED because of " a blow job". He was IMPEACHED because he is a liar. And that sir, is a fact.

[rush22]

I carried a Geneva Convention card, did you? I think your being dishonest when you say your in support of the Geneva Convention. Because I think it's even more obvious,(from your post) your contempt for the U.S in general.

No, I do not have contempt for the people or the country of the United States. I have contempt for the Bush administration. Why wouldn't I support the Geneva convention? Just because you carry a card apparently does not mean you will stand up for what that card represents. So are you saying that parading Hussein's medical exam on TV does not count as exposing him to public curiosity? I'm sure the public was very curious.

I'm so sure that poor Saddam followed the Geneva Convention to the letter - NOT.

The US is perfectly capable of holding itself to a higher standard than a rapist and killer, right?

Are you as incensed about Saddam's atrocities as you are about the nonsense that you accuse the president of? I didn't think so.

Listen. There are a lot of countries just as bad as Iraq. They also have little or no power. They are also not next door to me. Are you as incensed about Sudan as Iraq? Sudan is far worse than Iraq. Since 1983, over 2 million people have been killed in the current civil war. Slavery is rife, and has become more profitable than the drug trade. Famine is widespread. The official government Sudan harbored Osama Bin Laden for 6 years and provided him with training camps. Why aren't you "incensed" about that?

Had it been a liberal president, I doubt you would have cried as loudly or if at all.

Of course I would have. My first loyalty is to my values and my country, not to my party or the leader of that party. I think for myself.

I think your bitter about your IMPEACHED darling Clinton, who btw wasn't IMPEACHED because of " a blow job". He was IMPEACHED because he is a liar. And that sir, is a fact.

Yes, that is right, he was a liar. Liars should be impeached.

(and no, I do not live in the US, I live in Canada. I have dual citizenship, I am both an American and Canadian citizen.)

[scummybear]

rush22 said:

No, I do not have contempt for the people or the country of the United States. I have contempt for the Bush administration. Why wouldn't I support the Geneva convention? Just because you carry a card apparently does not mean you will stand up for what that card represents. So are you saying that parading Hussein's medical exam on TV does not count as exposing him to public curiosity? I'm sure the public was very curious.

I don't carry the card anymore, but I sure as hell know what it applied to. This is a very different war, with different circumstances. You can stand up for people like Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, etc. . . if you like, but crying over a pic of him on T.V, and invoking the rules of the Geneva convention over it, is suspect. I can only guess that it's just another manifestation of the hate-Bush train of thought.

... The liberal punditocracy seems to think it's an obvious fact that the Geneva Convention should apply to the war on terrorism, even though the plain text of the Geneva Convention applies as much to the war on terror as it does to the battle between the Federation and the Klingon Empire... Al-Qaida and the Iraqi insurgents defy all the rules enshrined and symbolized by the Geneva Convention...and yet administration critics piously demand that these thugs should be given all the benefits that come with being a signatory to it. Well, if the barbarians get all of the benefits of the Geneva Convention without obeying any of its rules, then it becomes not merely quaint, not merely worthless, but a tool of those who wish to overthrow all it stands for." --Jonah Goldberg

[rush22]

The liberal punditocracy seems to think it's an obvious fact that the Geneva Convention should apply to the war on terrorism, even though the plain text of the Geneva Convention applies as much to the war on terror as it does to the battle between the Federation and the Klingon Empire... Al-Qaida and the Iraqi insurgents defy all the rules enshrined and symbolized by the Geneva Convention...and yet administration critics piously demand that these thugs should be given all the benefits that come with being a signatory to it. Well, if the barbarians get all of the benefits of the Geneva Convention without obeying any of its rules, then it becomes not merely quaint, not merely worthless, but a tool of those who wish to overthrow all it stands for."

Well, maybe you should congratulate them--it looks like they've been successful.